Silent Dave

False. What you mean is, "If God DID proclaim to man 'genocide is good,' I would be incredibly surprised, and would need to rethink my philosophical and theological assumptions." I will therefore repeat the question.

True or false: Genocide is wrong, and would remain so even if God said it was right.


Dave

Lobstrosity

That's pretty damn presumptive of you. Who are you to tell the all-mighty God what he can and cannot do? Do you agree that God has free will? Furthermore, do you agree that what we call good is simply that which God calls good? If the answer is yes then where do you get off telling us what God will and will not do with his free will? You can't possibly think that your puny mind can fathom the awesome infinite intelligence of God. You know nothing about his wants, desires, and plans. You know nothing about what he'll choose to do at any given instant. He's your lord and savior and as such you simply must obey whatever he decrees. Therefore the hypothetical is a perfectly valid one. God could easily proclaim that genocide is good.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Bill,
Glad you asked this Bill. Simply put, if God does not exist then what you and I label 'morality' is nothing more then our personal preferences. Why not just call them that? No need for a fancy labels that give us some false sense of justification.

While you may have one set of preferences (ie rape, theft, murder are bad) I may have another (ie rape, theft, murder are good). Neither of us can say which one is wrong. Moreover, neither one of us can say what is 'moral' behavior because 'morality' doesn't exist apart from us.


However, if God exists then good and evil are defined in relation to Him...not you or me. He is the objective moral standard. While we can still argue about our preferences...we can't argue that 'rape is right'.

I'm not asking you to believe God exists...I am asking you to see my point of view and consider this tautology: IF God exists THEN He is the moral standard.


This was addressed above. The existence of God does give us a standard because He is the standard. Good and evil are both measured in terms of God.


There is...your heart and conscious.

He has. There are over 2 billion people who claim to have revelation of Gods will and nature.




Then let me clarify: Murder, rape and genocide are all crimes commited by man with evil intentions against other men. If God exists can He have evil intent? No. Because He is Holy. If God exists, He created us and is Holy can He judge us? Absolutely. He did (the flood) and will (revelation). If we are really bad or wage war (amorites, soddomites) against His people He will level judgment immediately (like He did to the amorites and the soddomites). Is this 'genocide'? Was there 'evil' intent here? No.

And about dodging questions...what questions? The non-sensical ones like 'What if God did something God would not do? What would you think about Him then, HMMMMM???'



Questions like this need not be answered. It's hypothetical, it's self contradicting (square circles, married bachelors) and thus impossible AND it has no bearing on the conversation.



Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Vorkosigan

Simply put, if God does not exist then what you and I label 'morality' is nothing more then our personal preferences.

Nonsense. Most people experience ethical behavior as a check on their personal preferences. Since gods do not exist, the conclusion is obvious that ethics are more than just personal preferences.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Vorkosigan,
This statement speaks for itself...you are assuming your conclusion.



Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Eudaimonist

What does that even mean? What exactly is it that makes God the standard of morality? What does it mean for an entity to be a standard?

Vorkosigan

No, I am waiting for anyone to demonstrate the existence of any god. So far, in 5-10,000 years of theistic mummery, this has not been one. Since this has not been demonstrated, ipso facto, we have morals without god.

Of course, if you want the long explanation, you'll have to start reading in evolutionary psychology, etc.

Vorkosigan

HRG

And if God X exists, then there just exists one additional entity who may have a personal preference, thus one additional moral system.
Who defined good and evil as inexorably linked to a specific entity ? Certainly not me.

This is not a tautology. All you can say is that "if God exists, his opinions about morality are an additional standard - additional to all the standards which we have come up with (Golden Rule, Categorical imperative".

That they are measured in terms of your God may be your personal definition of good and evil. It is not the common one, and it is certainly not mine.
No. The definition of genocide is unconcerned with the identity of the actor, or whether he is natural or supernatural.
Attention: redefinition of "evil intent" to "that what God cannot have".
Someone who orders genocide has an evil intention by the common definition of evil.
This has nothing to do with alleged holiness, but with brute force. You may equally claim that Stalin "judged" his adversaries to execution or the Gulag.
The Amalekite children did not wage war, nor did the Egyptian firstborns.

Regards,
HRG.

Silent Dave

False again. By virtue of "God would not say that genocide is right" being a claim about a being whose true essence and nature is beyond the ken of mere mortals, one of two things is true: either you only know that claim with strong inductive confidence at best, or you are omniscient and infallible. Strong inductive confidence is not sufficient to rule out the logical possibility of your being wrong, and therefore cannot invalidate a hypothetical situation in which that possibility obtains.

Assuming, therefore, that you are not God (and if you are, please stop by my place for a cup of coffee -- you know the address), I will state my question for the third and final time, and should you fail to answer it for the third time I will let that failure speak for itself.

True or false: Genocide is wrong, and would remain so even if God said it was right.


Dave

doodad

Was that last sentence a fiat?

If God is unknowable and all that other stuff you are trying to lay on us then you need to analyze your beliefs. I don't see how He could be anything but a concept, and you have basically said just that very thing. Granted, the idea or belief that God is some super being that offers truth, guidance, justice, and compassion, to name a few of his supposed attributes, is very common, and that is the purpose that believers intend for him to serve. However, does that make him exist in the corporeal sense?
As you say, we know him only as we relate to him, and how we relate seems to be our choice for a given situation.

The wildlife apparently has concepts of good and evil. Are you saying their understanding of such is based upon some belief in a supernatural power? Good behavior is that which is acceptable to others and which does others no harm, where evil behavior is just the opposite. Wild animals, even domesticated animals, such as livestock and house pets, exhibit emotional drives that are more than mere survival instinct.

I have two very competitive cocker spaniels and I have fed enough cattle to know that even simple critters exhibit behavior that is deemed by other critters to be either amiable or threatening.
You might say that was my observation, but I beg to differ. Even the lowly pig has a keen sense of community and engages in turf battles. Tell me these animals know anything about God. It apears that lower animals lack the cognitive ability to conceptualize such things as a supernatural God, so I seriously doubt that God enters their minds.

Tell me more about this redemptive purpose. Do you really think
that God made us sinners from the git go so he could swoop down and redeem us or save us from ourselves? Sounds like a solution looking for a problem to me.

Your comment about the redemptive purpose existing even before creation makes me wonder about your concept of of the Holy Trinity. It appears that you think Jesus is God, because those that believe that usually talk that way.