Buffman

Sabine,

Personally, I found that to be a wonderful answer and well worth any delay in response. Thank you.

Sabine Grant

Hello Amos... A simple believer from Uganda used to say to me " if you keep your eyes too much in the book, you forget to look up". It is a fine balance Amos. What I think we tend to forget is that the reading of the Bible does not rely strictly on understanding and personal interpretation. It is as if you followed a recipe without knowing each ingredient. The knowing relies on how the believer relates personaly to God. How willing the person is to grow.

Amos

You are a much better girl at heart then you let us believe you are. Did you know that the heart of woman is equal to the heart of Christ? Well, we have an icon to show just that we still have many women who represent this.

Buffman

Amos

How does the supernatural world impose its will over the natural world? Specifically! By what means? Could it be by human creative imagination converted to direct human actions? In other words, which came first? The human mind or the supernatural world? What verifiable evidence do you offer for your conclusions/beliefs?

Amos

The supernatural world and the natural word are identical with each other. The supernatural exists only for the obscured vision of our conscious mind and so a change of vision can unite the natural with the supernatural. It is also the reason that we can learn about the "supernatural" which, once again, only exists because of our oblivion.

For the supernatural to impose it's idea (it does not have a will) upon the natural we must first quit thinking and let inspiration from the higher world impose upon the lower world of our rational form of understanding.

The "supernatural wold" is incarnate upon us in our soul and it influences the rational human mind with regard to direction (aptitude) and orientation (inclination). We are free to chose in our rational will because the supernatural is always submissive but ever persistent.

Buffman

Thanks for the quick reply.

The supernatural world and the natural word are identical with each other. The supernatural exists only for the obscured vision of our conscious mind and so a change of vision can unite the natural with the supernatural. It is also the reason that we can learn about the "supernatural" which, once again, only exists because of our oblivion.

I gather, then, that you tacitly agree. The supernatural world originates in the minds of humans. If so, then we "learn" about the supernatural only from that which we create ourselves.

For the supernatural to impose it's idea (it does not have a will) upon the natural we must first quit thinking and let inspiration from the higher world impose upon the lower world of our rational form of understanding.

Are you advancing the position that humans have no independent "will?" Is what you identify as an "idea" that which classic religionists call the "will?" If humans quit "thinking," then how do they differ from any other living thing? (Back to my "some people are trees and some are not" analogy.)

The "supernatural wold" is incarnate upon us in our soul and it influences the rational human mind with regard to direction (aptitude) and orientation (inclination). We are free to chose in our rational will because the supernatural is always submissive but ever persistent.

What you label as our "soul," I label as our "mind"...the true source of ideas/will. However, I agree! The supernatural is always submissive to critical, accurately informed, reason.

Amos

Yes, in part, but we also learn about that which always was but we never realized or understood correctly. I will admid that when we look at things objectively (with a specific purpose in mind) with the eye of our soul we can imprint images that later require explanation throught the process Plato called "recollection."

Yes and no, sorry, humans have only one will because they are only one animal and therefore have free will. This means that humans are free to chose even if they are forced to chose (ie. they are hungry and must eat).

The classic scholar idea about "will" makes reference to what some call the "Immanent Will" and this is my "idea" (yes) that is presented to our faculty of reason and therefore we are forced to chose between the input of our conscious mind and input of our subconscious mind. In this sense are we determined because we are divided in our own mind.

By "quit thinking" I only meant that "inspirations" and "ideas" are not generated by critical thinking but enter our conscious mind while it is at rest. It is important to recognize our own mind (my soul) and it is also important to go by reason. In the OT it was called tithing, which meant that we must spent 10 % of our time towards reflection and self evaluation while reason prevails.

Sabine Grant

Amos... I personaly think it is rather ridiculous to pertain to know the heart of anyone via cyber communication.... it takes years of shared joys and griefs to even start to see thru the " heart " of a person.

Joseph Backs

Sabine, personally, I skip the years of shared grief and joy and just tear the darn thing out of there to get a closer look.

J.B.

Sabine Grant

I hope you understand what I meant by "heart"... the individuality, thoughts, feelings, strength, weakness etc.....in reality and jokes set aside, it can be quite decietful to entrust only words. And an intense eye contact tells you a lot about someone's individuality.
"Les yeux sont les fenetres de l'Ame" Victor Hugo.