Douglas J. Bender

David Mathews,


You're not from Elkhart, Indiana, are you? I knew a "David Mathews" back when I was in elementary school.

You say, or someone else says, that you are a "Church of Christ" pastor and teacher. Could you explain what, exactly, you meant by saying:
Am I to understand that you are in effect saying that atheists will be sent to Hell for their unforgiven sin, which remains unforgiven because of their atheism, and that God is able to bring some atheists to faith, thus saving them (though not while they remain atheists)? I hope this is what you meant.

In Christ,

Douglas

David Mathews

Hello Buffman,

I don't see why this idea is so repulsive to you. That we don't own our own body is evident enough, soon enough the worms will own it once we're planted six feet into the ground.

Besides, there are all these bacteria, parasites and other invisible inhabitants of the body who think that they own the place, as eventually they will.

I don't think that the idea of God owning my body and soul is so offensive as the thought that soon enough all of these atoms in my body are going to find a home in the dirt and they won't care in the least that they no longer compose a self-conscious human.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello David Payne,

David: You are complaining about the way the universe is and suggesting that if God really existed the Universe would be different. I don't perceive this as a legitimate argument.

To begin with: a benelovent, loving God is not obligated to cover the world with pillows and protect humans from their own obstinance and stupidity.

I suppose that God could have programmed every human to wake up seven a.m. every morning and love everyone that they meet, but the reality is that we don't live in such a universe.

Second: Humans are evil creatures, committed all sorts of sins and atrocities. Humans engage in war, humans commit terrorists acts, humans hate and slander each other, humans use and abuse each other and humans have devloped weapons of mass destruction sufficient to bring about our own extinction.

I don't attribute any of these evil behaviors to the devil. The responsibility for human evil rests altogether and entirely upon humankind. Humans are evil because they have chosen to be evil. Nothing more, nothing less -- no excuses whatsoever.

David: Now I will say something that you haven't heard before: I think that God is going to save the atheists and that every one of them will have an eternal home in heaven.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Douglas J. Bender,

I have only visited Indiana, I have never lived there.

No, what I am saying is that God can and will save atheists even though they remain atheistic in thought, word and behavior. I am saying that I expect to find millions of atheists in heaven, enjoying eternity and all the blessings that Christians expect.

I have no doubt whatsoever that on the Day of Judgment, God will send every atheist to spend eternal life with him as an unprovoked act of supernatural love, an act of grace so astonishing that even those familiar with God's grace will not comprehend nor appreciate.

In Christ,

David Mathews

Bible Humper

You don't think that believers must prove the claim to themselves? If no proof is needed to justify holding any particular belief, we should all simply choose to "believe" whatever is convenient at the moment. No need to practice the rituals, nor observe the taboos, of any religion.

They are obligated to provide themselves with proof of some sort, without evidence, no justifiable verdict is possible.

First, supernature must be verified. Next, it must be verified that an entity is responsible for manifestations of supernature.

For all we know, we all could be brains in a lab being fed stimuli that is indistinguishable from the "real world". This scenario and the supernatural scenario both could be true, but if these scenarios are both indistiguishable from the more mundane conclusions based on observable evidence.....

The same factors that make atheism more likely than Invisible Pink Unicornism. Theism and IPUism have the same chance of being true, along with an infinite amount of other possibilities, if we no longer need proof in order to make verdicts.

In your opinion, is he justified? If not, please share.

This is in fact evidence against these beliefs. If your theism is true, we must wonder how the rest of the theists, polytheists, and animists came up with their ideas since they are obviously incompatible. The fact that these different beliefs developed pointd to the aheist verdict that they are all the attempts of primitive people to make sense of the unknown.

As a Christian, you can look at the taboos and rituals of the other supernaturalists and conclude that they are primitive attempts to explain and influence the unknown. What about your own taboos and rituals?

This contradicts the Bible, except for the unpredictable part.


Just out of curiosity, when did you become a member of your particular denomination?

Almost all theists inherited their particular religion during childhood from their parents. These people were far too young to make an informed judgement, so it can't be said that they made their own choice.

Probably second most common are those who converted during their life from their childhood flavour of theism to another.

Last are those who became theists during emotional upheaval.


Yes, I agree with that. Inheriting a positive assertion for something lacking proof is a completely different thing from "inheriting" atheism though. I didn't spend my formative years going somewhere once a week to hear sermons that praise Darwin, nor was I ever taught that not believing him is immoral and a ticket to eternal torture. I came to believe that we are the result of evolution on my own based on the facts when I could read about it myself.

David Gould

This point of view won't make you popular with Douglas...

It is, however, to me a very interesting view. As I have occasionally said, I suspect that God - if he exists - is a lot nicer than many Christians give him credit for.

You are different in that respect.

Welcome to the boards.

rainbow walking

Hi Again David,
Thanks for your response. It looks as if you have many folks interested in exploring your beliefs and you seem to be fielding them all quite well. I commend your resolve.

David: David: I suppose that those decisions are made based upon whatever information the individual feels necessary. People make different choices for different reasons, it is not my place to dictate upon what basis anyone makes their own choices.

rw: Of course, David, I wasn't accusing you of dictating beliefs, I was getting at the correct answer to my question, which you gave: Religious decisions based upon information. Let's focus upon that for just a moment and see if it leads us anywhere productive in ascertaining the mind of faith.

My next question that just naturally follows hard upon the heels of your answer to my first question is: Must this information be true for a person's beliefs to be rational?

And, I appreciate your patience but I have one more question that flows along with this:

If a person bases their faith on information they believe to be true, should they consider any claims against this information being true or just disregard such claims as impervious to their faith?

Thank you in advance David for your continued interest in this discussion.

Steven Carr

Actually, that has happened many times over to the
atoms in your body. Cells die and are regenerated and the atoms you possess now, are not the ones you start off with. (I'm not entirely sure if this is true of brain cells and the eggs of women, but I think it is true for every other organ)

Why do you find it an offensive idea that your
milk teeth (to give one obvious example) are no
longer part of a self-conscious human?

As for the idea of God being allowed to kill people, because he created them, this is simply 'might makes right' morality.

tergiversant

Gotta love that list, Max. Personally, my favorite perk is that I can masturbate as oft as I like without having to deal with horrible bouts of guilt thereafter (I suppose you might file that under not feeling wretched about myself). The other big perk is that I no longer lie awake at night wondering what really happens to people after they die.

I am itching to take my unbelief house-to-house, so lemme know if you would like to go door knocking sometime!

tergiversant@OklahomaAtheists.org

<a href="http://www.OklahomaAtheists.org" target="_blank">ATHEISTS of OKLAHOMA</a>

"Atheists are OK."

MrDarwin

This is an interesting idea, and one I have seen put forth by very few Christians. One of my online acquaintances believed that atheists were "called to atheism" and as such served a specific purpose in God's plan. I should add that one of things that puzzles me the most about virtually all Christian sects is the idea of damnation by an omnipotent and omniscient creator deity--i.e., one who knew what would happen, and how many souls would be damned (numbering in the billions, by most accounts), in fact exactly who would be damned, as the result of how that deity created the universe.

I have put forth the idea that, according to Christian theology, there is no escaping the conclusion that people suffer--both finite suffering in this life and infinite suffering in damnation--precisely because God wants them to suffer; how could it be otherwise for an omniscient creator? Yet most Christians do not seem to see this as the logical conclusion of their beliefs.