Lestat de Lioncourt

How juvenile...

I'm sure you're amused (children often are by their juvenile antics), but I am not (and likely neither do the rest of us).

= straw man fallacy

In your warped mind, perhaps...but not in reality where it really matters. I mean really, did you really expect your juvenile responses to give you and what you say 'credibility'...

LOL!!

Lestat

<Damn...and I said I wasn't going to respond any further to your juvenile pontifications. Well...this will be the last! >

Dr Rick

Are you trying to say that just because someone has lighter skin than another that it's okay to start and/or partake in a riot destroying another person's material goods and harming their person? Are you trying to say that it's okay to murder little girls and whip to death young boys because to post otherwise suggests "bias?" Are you trying to tell us that it's okay to riot against economic oppresion as the founding fathers did, but not against economic oppression, racial oppression, and civll rights oppression?

livius drusus

But the nature of the crimes are identical. Property damage, vandalism, arson, theft: these are the criminal components of a riot. Otherwise, it's just a protest (or a party or a concert). So what bothers you then is not that property was destroyed, but the reasons the vandalizers have for destroying it. A violent reaction to perceived injustice is blowing things out of proportion for you, because you don't believe the injustice exists. Since the accusation of injustice is against people you identify with strongly, ie, white people, you are insulted by any rationale that might include it.

When white college students commit the same crimes in the name of fraternity keggers and bball teams, that doesn't piss you off, because nobody's pointing a finger at you. The petty and childish reasons white people riot don't bother you anywhere near as much as the serious, life and society-changing reasons black people riot. Even if as you so frequently declaim they are entirely misguided, they're angry about their lives, their future, their community. I have far more respect for that than I do for Woodstock Concession Stand and Port-A-Potty Riots.


I call it an understandable although overly-emotive and self-defeating expression of anger.

My statement was of course hyperbolic, but then again, the Benton Harbor riots didn't start because of one high speed chase gone bad either. There have been an extraordinary number of student riots in response to authority crackdowns on underage drinking. Here's a good overview of the series that happened just in the Spring of 1998. If black people rioted with this frequency, nomatter what their reasons or where the location, it would be considered a national state of emergency.

It is an emotional reaction, not a deliberately chosen political statement. Just because it is destructive doesn't mean there's no reason.

Then I hope for your sake that the local constabulary never attempts to interrupt the flow of beer to underclassmen.

Lestat de Lioncourt

Appeal to Mockery - Logical Fallacy

Lestat

Derec

Yes, and that's why criminal acts from both sides need to be prosecuted. How many of Benton Harbor rioters have been arrested/charged? How many on hate crime charges?
Who is going to replace the damage done by the rioters?

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So what bothers you then is not that property was destroyed, but the reasons the vandalizers have for destroying it.

There is a difference if vandalizm targets passers-by (of a particular race) or if

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A violent reaction to perceived injustice is blowing things out of proportion for you, because you don't believe the injustice exists.

Riots in Benton Harbor are a massive case of blowing things out of proportion, yes. Everything else is apologetics.
A weird sense of Political Correctness should not stop the prosecution.

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When white college students commit the same crimes in the name of fraternity keggers and bball teams,

Yeah sure, no black students participate here.

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The petty and childish reasons white people riot don't bother you anywhere near as much as the serious, life and society-changing reasons black people riot.

Do you realize how racist this sentence is?
Neither me nor Lestat generalized black people (we always referred to these particular rioters) but you do it repeatedly concerning white people.

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Even if as you so frequently declaim they are entirely misguided, they're angry about their lives, their future, their community.

Than how about doing something constructive for a change. To improve their lives, their future and their community. Rioting will most likely cause the exact opposite though.

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I have far more respect for that than I do for Woodstock Concession Stand and Port-A-Potty Riots.

I have no respect for neither.
But at least at sports or kegger riots these things happen less frequently:
"The rioters set at least five buildings and five cars ablaze in the impoverished city of 12,000. They shot one passer-by in the shoulder and beat and stabbed others, police said."
http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/st...61803002.shtml

We are not talking just about property damage but about assaults too.

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I call it an understandable although overly-emotive and self-defeating expression of anger.

Arger towards police even though the guy killed himself, not the police. I do not call this "understandable anger".

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My statement was of course hyperbolic, but then again, the Benton Harbor riots didn't start because of one high speed chase gone bad either.

Well if the townspeople view this case as an example of ongoing "police harrasment" tnan that kinda makes their case less valid. Why didn't they chose to riot over a case where they actually had a point?
What should the police do for them not to feel harrassed? Stop patrolling the streets and discontinue arresting suspects?

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There have been an extraordinary number of student riots in response to authority crackdowns on underage drinking.

As I have already said, drinking age here is totaly rediculous.
If they can't get the laws to get changed any college administration worth their salt should at least look the other way.

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If black people rioted with this frequency, nomatter what their reasons or where the location, it would be considered a national state of emergency.

In these riots, were people shot at (including police), were buildings and cars set on fire? Were media reporters attacked?

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It is an emotional reaction, not a deliberately chosen political statement. Just because it is destructive doesn't mean there's no reason.

There is no reason these people had for their actions.

UMoC

Lestat de Lioncourt

Ahhh...but the motive was/is entirely different! Hence, the point Loren made (which I reiterated), one was about race while the other was not!

Huh? Wherever did you get this ridiculous notion (that the crimes don't bother me)!?! I think I've made myself plainly clear...it's BOTH the crimes as a result of the motive(s) of those committing those crimes! Like DUH!

No, not just me!

Do you know me? Are we fishing buddies or something? We must be since you are making such a statement as if it were a matter of fact

You and I are not buddies therefore you do not know what I do or do not believe. If you want to know, try asking instead of just assuming it.

Oh, I see. Only those of the same color of skin are allowed to identify with like kind, is that it!?! Please...

Again, are we fishing buddies? No, we are not. So how do you know what my ethnic background is? One doesn't have to be a "minority" in order to identify with minority plights.


AGAIN! Are we buddies? Did we serve in the 90 Gulf War together? Do you and your wife and my wife and I go bowling on the weekends? No you say...then how in the hell do you know what does or does not insult me let alone put such words that which I did not speak into my mouth!!!!!

(Redundantly) AGAIN! Are we buddies? Did we serve in the 90 Gulf War together? Do you and your wife and my wife and I go bowling on the weekends? No you say...then how in the hell do you know what does or does not piss me off let alone put such words that which I did not speak into my mouth!!!!!

(Redundantly) AGAIN! Are we buddies? Did we serve in the 90 Gulf War together? Do you and your wife and my wife and I go bowling on the weekends? No you say...then how in the hell do you know what does or does not bother me let alone put such words that which I did not speak into my mouth!!!!!

Quote me "frequently declaim(ing)" this! Otherwise take your straw man and stick it where the sun don't shine!

You in your confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance and the resulting carelessness as a result of it is part and parcel to the problem. If you're not a part of the solution you're a part of the problem. STOP being a part of the bloody problem!

Cause and Effect, it's a simple concept. Idiot on a bike with criminal history in possession of a controlled substance puts everyones' life at risk by recklessly driving across the state eluding police crashes and dies. People of small community (which so happens to be 90% black) perceives this to be a unjustified death as they perceived he was being chased by a 'white' officer (who so happens to be 50% black); and therefore commences to riot when this officer was cleared of any wrong doing (deja vu).
The riots happened as a result of this incident...period. If this incident would never have happened this riot would never have happened, plain and simple.

There is no justifiable reason whatsoever that warrants the unnecessary wanton destruction of property and willingly placing others in harms way...period! Any argument to the contrary is not only unsupported it is completely asinine!

No matter how hard you try or how many you give, no amount of fallacious arguments will give your ridiculous arguments credibility whereas the OP is concerned.

livius drusus

Gulf war veteran are you, Lestat?

lunachick

Pot.
Kettle.
Black.

Dr Rick

Originally posted by Lestat de Lioncourt
I think you need to see a real Doctor there Dr. Rick, as you are obviously suffering from an acute case of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance.


Ad hominem

In your warped mind, perhaps...but not in reality where it really matters. I mean really, did you really expect your juvenile responses to give you and what you say 'credibility'

ditto

I'm sure you're amused (children often are by their juvenile antics),

ditto

...but I am not (and likely neither do the rest of us).

appeal to popular opinion

Neither type of rioting is the right answer, naturally, but what got both started and who were involved are completely different

Begging the question

Why are people insistent on comparing incomparable events?

ditto

Ahhh...but the motive was/is entirely different! Hence, the point Loren made (which I reiterated), one was about race while the other was not!

ditto

Are you trying to say that just because someone has less money and material goods than another that it's okay to start and/or partake in a riot destroying another person's material goods and harming their person?

strawman

Would someone please tell me what year this is

irrelevant question

Wherever did you get this ridiculous notion (that the crimes don't bother me)!?!

Prejudical language and a strawman

it's BOTH the crimes as a result of the motive(s) of those committing those crimes!

Failure to elucidate

No, not just me!

ad hominem (tu quoque)

Oh, I see. Only those of the same color of skin are allowed to identify with like kind, is that it!?! Please

Strawman and mockery

AGAIN! Are we buddies? Did we serve in the 90 Gulf War together? Do you and your wife and my wife and I go bowling on the weekends? No you say...then how in the hell do you know what does or does not insult me let alone put such words that which I did not speak into my mouth!!!!![/quote]

Appeal to pity and irrelevant questions

You in your confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance and the resulting carelessness as a result of it is part and parcel to the problem. If you're not a part of the solution you're a part of the problem. STOP being a part of the bloody problem!

Ad hominem, prejudical language, and false dichotomy

There is no justifiable reason whatsoever that warrants the unnecessary wanton destruction of property and willingly placing others in harms way...period! Any argument to the contrary is not only unsupported it is completely asinine!

Fallacy of exclusion and ad hominem.

The riots happened as a result of this incident...period.

Complex cause fallacy

Calzaer

[Insulting name for Lestat removed]
So we should still be a colony of England. During the war, if we hadn't engaged in wanton destruction of property (military sabotauge) and willingly placing others in harm's way (like, by shooting at them), we would have lost. Our freedom? "There's no justifiable reason whatsoever... period!"

Blacks shouldn't be able to vote, either. MLKjr put lots of his own people in serious harm's way with his sit-ins, and his expression of veiws caused others to destroy property (like, but firebombing black churches). "There's no justifiable reason whatsoever... period!"

Finally, when the Patriot Act III passes, and GWB declares himself Emporer for Life, we need to just sit back and take it, because "There's no justifiable reason whatsoever... period!"

Now you'll say these are extreme examples, or they are far in the past, but that's not going to help your position. Your position was stated in an absolute. "There's no justifiable reason whatsoever... period!" Freedom is therefore NOT a justifiable reason. Societal change is NOT a justifiable reason. Personal defense is NOT a justifiable reason. There is no justifiable reason.

***

UMOC:


What good would the French Revolution have done if the pesants only destroied their OWN houses? Jefferson explicitly wrote that the people have the right to rebel against an unjust government (which is a good thing, since he himself participated in a revolt against an unjust government). Now you're saying he didn't really mean it? Or maybe he only intended us to rebel in effigy?