Evangelion

BH -

*snip*

Define "avatar." If you mean "representative", the answer is "yes." If you mean "God incarnate", the answer is "no."

Yes, it's the same old Yahweh - and yes, OT Judaism was a patriarchal religion, replete with sexual inequality and unpleasant rituals which the modern observer finds extraordinarily unpleasant. No, it's not representative of 21st Century mores, nor is it intended to be. (Surprise, surprise!)

Yes, OT Judaism is the religion that was established by the God of Israel, Who is also the God of the Christians. Yes, OT Judaism is a tough religion, and there are certain rituals that I don't like very much at all. But do I take issue with OT Judaism? No, I don't. I accept that it was suited to its day, and that it contains nothing that is unjust or evil.

The rest of your post was a fine attempt to dodge my point - which is that you'll gladly use this passage of Scripture to mock Christians, but you probably wouldn't take it to your local Rabbi and laugh in his face when he presents an answer.

It's the classic atheist double standard.

B. H. Manners

Will there ever come a day when humanity outgrows Christianity?

Evangelion

B. H. Manners -

Sure.

Just as soon as it outgrows religion.

Evangelion

The New English Translation provides a brief commentary on the "adultery test" in its footnotes.

See <a href="http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl" target="_blank">here.</a>

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: Evangelion ]</p>

scombrid

It was suited to it's day alright. It was also unjust and evil. It shows the roots of Judaism in ignorant superstition just like all other religions. They gave women that might be pregnant a concoction that would cause abortion if pregnant. They believed that some sky fairy actually made the judgement whether or not the abortion would occur. However, we today know that any pregnant women drinking the drink would abort without supernatural intervention. It doesn't differ from cultures that sacrifice virgins for the sake of good harvest. It's a story of abuse born of ignorant superstition. There are many of these in the bible.

Why bother with the rabbi? He's not likely to knock on your door or approach you in the [insert just about any venue] with his inane "literature". I doubt anyone here would actually seek out a christian to mock with this passage. However, if approached by a Christian, this is a dandy one to throw back at them.

Bible Humper

Well, most Christians think that Jesus was Yahweh incarnate, so my use of the word "avatar" applies only to them.

As much as I love anti-apologetics, I only ever indulge in it online. I don't ever see any Jews around these boards who are willing to do battle, if I did then I would force them to answer for it too.

Irrelevant. The point is not that I find Yahweh's behavior to be distasteful, it is that his behavior was totally absurd.

The idea that there is a deity who grants magical powers through the performance of this invocation is ridiculous. It's the sort of thing we could expect from a barbarian's imagination, but Christians are now left holding the bag, trying to dream up some sort of excuse for it which is at least somewhat palatable.

Why don't you reveal why Yahweh would grant power to this particular ritual in the first place?

B. H. Manners

My friend Muhammed Al-Evangelion just sent me an email replying to this question about the Koran:

BH: "Will man ever outgrow the Koran?"

Muhammed Al Evangelion's reply: "Yes, as soon as it outgrows religion."

Evangelion

scombrid -

*snip*

...and once again, notice the atheist double standard. "I don't like OT Judaism. It stinks. OK, so who do we blame for that? Oh, I know - let's blame the Christians!"

Riiiiiiiiiiiight...

Uh... because it's his religion? (Just a shot in the dark here. Might be worth a try, asking a Jew about Judaism. I know it's a stretch, but...)

And neither am I. Nor are plenty of other Christians. So what's your point?

Are you going to give me a proper reason for not asking a Rabbi?

Well, I've seen it done at Christian discussion boards, and it's obvious that the same trend is rearing its ugly head here, as well.

There, you see?

You've just proved my point again.

brighid

For precisely the reasons I outlined – they don’t try and shove their God down the throats of non-Jews, nor are they commanded by their God to go out and “spread” the Word like some damned virus. I use to manage a Jewish forum and have asked these questions to my Jewish compadres and as I have stated the answer varies. Judaism does not deny the dark parts of their God. In my experience they do not paint him to be the omni benevolent deity that Christians due, even amongst the Orthodox Hassidim. And again – because they don’t try and shove it down my throat, or condemn me to hell and generally stay the heck out of other people’s business.

Also the OT is THEE necessary part of Christian mythology for without the misinterpreted prophecies of the Judaic mythology (and of course the coincidental pagan influence) they would have NO Christian mythology. The Ten Commandments are an integral part of Christian doctrine are they not? Don’t the prophets of the OT by the same God who later sends Christ foretell the prophecies of Christ? Isn’t it the Judaic God who “sent” His only son to come as a sword and not change the law, not even one iota? Wasn’t Jesus a Jew, as well as his disciples? Christianity is dependant upon Judaism and is equally responsible for answering the questions about the God some claim cannot be separated from the Savior Son and Holy Ghost, and the thousands of other sects that differ in some degree on this. However, Jews don’t COME HERE and attempt to impart their knowledge to us. They don’t seek to convert us. They don’t seek to damn us to hell for all eternity and suffer infinite torture and have the audacity to claim their God is doing this in perfect love and compassion.

So we challenge the Christian because they are the most insidious religious infection in the US, but all other religions are held to the same standards. Christians claim that their Bible is the absolute Truth and no one can come to God (the one of the OT) except through Jesus (the God of the OT, or not) and therefore the perfection and infallibility of every single inspired word, passage and book of the Bible is open for scrutiny, challenge, skepticism, ridicule and debasement for the hideous nature of any perfect deity who can in one breath claim perfect love and YET be capable of imparting such vitriolic “inspiration “ to His followers for posterity.

Brighid

Evangelion

BH -

I don't see that this passage teaches any such thing. I believe it's a form of herbal abortion; nothing more.

That's another one I'd like to see you present to a Jew.

...and here you fall back on the predicatable "Let's blame the Christians for everything we don't like about OT Judaism" mantra yet again.

Ludicrous, bigoted, and facile in the exttreme.

Why bother to make it sound palatable in the first place, when it's obviously not? I see no reason to guild the lily here.

But thanks for proving my other point, which is that you'll reject any explanation out of hand (because you're not really interested in an explanation at all.)

Really, some kinds of atheists are just as predictable as Fundies. They even use the same "logic"...

Because I don't believe that He did.

Why do you persist in attacking straw men?