HaysooChreesto!

That's peculiar. My entire family-immediate and extended hold the "once saved, always saved" point of view. That's how they deal with my heathendom.
"When you were a kid you accepted Jesus so you're going to Heaven whether you like it or not". My brother is fond of telling me that, but he does so in a caring way so it doesn't offend me.

That's probably why I don't hold any animosity towards the vast majority of Christians. Almost every single person I've ever met who considers themselves a Christian has been a good person. So I guess I just assumed that the "once saved always saved" was almost universal.

Treacle Worshipper

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Originally posted by Treacle Worshipper
Just to clarify, I don't mean people using the "if you were truly saved, you wouldn't have lost faith argument". I mean people who say, "If you have once been truly saved, it doesn't matter if you turn away, because you can't lose your salvation."
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Because one is saying that if you have lost your faith it is obvious that you never were saved, and the other is saying that even if you are saved it is still possible for you to lose your faith.

Lamma:
Almost every single person I've ever met who considers themselves a Christian has been a good person. So I guess I just assumed that the "once saved always saved" was almost universal.
I agree that the vast majority of Xians are good people. However, most of the ones I know are good people who grieve that their friends and family are going to hell. The majority of people who were upset when I left the church thought I had effectively signed my "eternal torture" certificate. My famliy takes the 3rd way out - "Judge not lest ye be judged" - and refuses to comment on my eternal fate.
TW

Amos

Except that Christianity has nothing to do with being a good person. Remember here that Jesus, who's example we are to follow, was counted among the wicked.

HaysooChreesto!

I don't believe that they're good people because they're Christian. But I do think that religion gives many people some guidance they wouldn't find otherwise. The fact is most people don't have the time and/or inclination to study and learn the more complex aspects of morality and philosophy so religion-especially many of the types practiced in the US provides a short cut to those things.

While my family is from the "once saved, always saved" school, there's also a catch. One can lose the size of their reward in Heaven. I always took it to mean that one is not as close to God as others who lived their faith more vigorously than others. I remember that as a teenager I used to think of it as something along the lines of getting a condo instead of a castle.

Christian

TW,

We talked about this at the Bible Study I lead a few weeks ago. Since it directly speaks to your question I'll post the text from the handout we used.

Respectfully,

Christian

Edited to remove possible copyright violation in accordance with Rule #5

Amos

For sure, they try to be good peole and are good people by many standards.

We color our own heaven while we are on earth because heaven is a place on earth after we're done coloring our own place on earth. "What is tied on earth is tied in heaven and what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven."

Christian

Dear editor,

I am the author of the text I posted earlier, and I really don't care who copies it or uses it.

Respectfully,

Christian

ProNihil

I didn't see a whole lot of scriptural references to back up the "once saved, you can still burn" stance.

During my 11 year stint in christendom, this passage gave me the most trouble of all, and since I never recieved any answers to prayer or ANYTHING for that matter, I chalked it up to me having crucified the son of god all over again as you will see...

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.



Guess I'm goin to hell in a handbasket!

lunachick

I would like to save, once and for all, people from religious cults. Especially from those nasty Abrahamic cults.

Yes, indeed; once they are saved, they will always be saved!.

Christian

Try #2.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO LOSE YOUR SALVATION???
Perseverance vs Apostasy

Christians have disagreed on this question for thousands of years. Both answers are still present in the church (and among the theologians) today. It is best to search the scriptures yourself, pray for the Spirit to give you insights, and come to an understanding of this doctrine. There are problem verses which must be explained for either side of the issue. This is not a doctrine to divide over.

Perseverance – All those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives. Those who do not persevere were never true Christians in the first place.

Argument #1: The spiritual transformation when we believe is described as being “born again.” Birth is a permanent condition. It is not possible for someone to become un-born once they have been born.

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

Argument #2: God promises strength to persevere to the end for every true believer.

1 Corinthians 1:8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

(see also Ps 37:23-24, Jer 32:40, Rom 5:5, Rom 5:9-10, Rom 14:4, 1 Cor 10:13, Phil 1:6, 2 Thes 3:3, Jas 5:11, and 1 Pe 1:3-5)

Argument #3: Salvation is the work of almighty God, not fallible man. God cannot fail, therefore His salvation of His saints will not fail.

Malachi 3:6 “I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.”

(see also Rom 8:29-35, Rom 9:16-18, 2 Cor 12:9-10, Eph 2:8-9, 1 Thes 5:22-23, and Heb 7:25 - see NIV footnote)

Argument #4: Those who believe are promised eternal life, and eternal life is … eternal.

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

(see also Mark 10:29-30, and John 6:38-40)

Argument #5: The Holy Spirit in our heart is God’s seal and guarantee of eternal life. God will not fail to deliver what He has guaranteed.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

(see also 2 Cor 1:22, 2 Cor 5:5, and Eph 4:30)

Argument #6: Those who appear to fall away were never true Christians in the first place.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Apostasy – Only those who keep their faith until the end will receive eternal life. It is possible to be truly born again and then to fall away and lose your salvation. If your faith ends, then your salvation ends with it.

Argument #1: We are repeatedly warned against falling away in scripture. God would not warn us against doing the impossible.

1 Cor 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!

(see also Matt 5:13, Mk 9:42-49, Mk 13:13, Jn 16:1, Acts 20:30, Rom 11:17-24, 1 Cor 9:24-27, 1 Cor 10:1-12, 2 Cor 6:1, Jas 5:19-20, and 2 Pe 3:17)

Argument #2: Only those who stand firm to the end will be saved. This implies the possibility of falling.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

(see also Matt. 10:22, Matt 24:13, Jn 8:31-32, Jn 15:1-7, Col 1:22-23, Heb 3:14, Rev 3:5)

Argument #3: Jesus taught that some would believe for a little while but then fall away.

Luke 8:11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Argument #4: Scripture describes some who have apostatized.

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

(see also Gal 5:4, 1 Tim 1:18-20, 1 Tim 4:1, 1 Tim 6:10, 1 Tim 6:21, Heb 3:12, Heb 10:26-39, and 1 Jn 5:16)

Argument #5: If a Christian commits the unforgivable sin they will lose their salvation.

Matt 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

(see also Lk 12:10)


Conclusion: Scripture itself is correct on the subject. Personally, I believe that the doctrine of perseverance (a.k.a. eternal security) most closely aligns with scripture. The following warnings are in order:

The Risk of Believing in Perseverance: It is possible for the belief that you can not lose salvation to lead to complacency in your Christian walk, to thinking you have a license to sin, and to being deceived about your true spiritual condition -- thinking you are saved because of a conversion event when you are really a false disciple. Scripture teaches against those errors.

The Risk of Believing in Apostasy: It is possible for the belief that you can lose salvation to lead to a “works based” concept of salvation, uncertainty about your current true spiritual condition, and a relationship with God characterized by dread instead of a powerful peace and calm assurance. Scripture teaches against those errors.