Mr. Superbad

"While I advocate strong measures against countries that launder money that could be used for terrorism, I recommend that Congress re-examine the Patriot Act and strip out those provisions that undermine our civil liberties-- such as the ability to hold American citizens without the right to counsel and to allow the government to rummage through the library and video rental records of citizens without first obtaining search warrants." - Howard Dean

From what I've read, his health care plan really doesn't give much more power to the governement. It mostly relies on expanding the coverage of pre-existing programs, and offering tax credits and vouchers for small businesses, the self-employed, and contracters who don't stay at their jobs long enough to qualify for benefits.

Mr. Superbad

For anyone interested:
Here's Dean's speech today on his health care plan.
Here's a comparison of Gephardts and Dean's plan.
And here is a summary of the plan.

"I will fully fund our ability to do stem cell research based on
medical facts -- not religious ideology." - Howard Dean

Majestyk

Understood. But as a proponent of Universal Health Care he is still expanding the powers of government. The only difference, between a Republican/Conservative and a Democrat/Liberal, is the section of government they want to enlarge.

S'ok. I'll just go thru another election cycle with no one in the race that I can support. Same 'ol, same 'ol.

Autonemesis

I used to think that. But then Bush attained office. Now I don't think that anymore.

Evangelion

Churches are non-profit organisations, and exempt from taxation on that basis. There is no legitimate reason for taxing them in the first place, and it would be blatantly partisan to do so.

Unless, of course, you wish to remove the "tax free" privilege from everybody else at the same time...? Gee, now that would be a really popular move, wouldn't it?

• A non-profit organization is a group organized for purposes other than generating profit and in which no part of the organization's income is distributed to its members, directors, or officers.
  
  [...]
  
  Non-profit organizations must be designated as nonprofit when created and may only pursue purposes permitted by statutes for non-profit organizations.
  
  Non-profit organizations include churches, public schools, public charities, public clinics and hospitals, political organizations, legal aid societies, volunteer services organizations, labor unions, professional associations, research institutes, museums, and some governmental agencies.
  
  [...]
  
  
  For federal tax purposes, an organization is exempt from taxation if it is organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, public safety, literary, educational, prevention of cruelty to children or animals, and/or to develop national or international sports. Social security tax is also currently optional although 80 percent of the organizations elect to participate.
  
  Source.

It's not as if they're enjoying some kind of unique status, you know.

PopeInTheWoods

Evangelion, it may seem obvious now, but some of the judicial decisions establishing churches as non-profits were very near things. And remember that Grant was President well over a century ago.

Also, it stretches credibility that some religious empires (the Vatican, mega-churches, TV ministries, etc.) are non-profit when one observes the lavish material belongings of their hierarchy. I don't think the Pope, Rod Parsley, Billy Graham and his spawn, or Pat Robertson eat ramen noodles, shop at Goodwill, or drive used Chevy Cavaliers.

But I suppose if Scientologists can have tax-free status, then the more established fantasy-pushers should have it too.

Andy

Evangelion

I totally agree with you here. And to be perfectly frank, I just can't understand how these guys manage to get away with it. I mean, they're obviously rolling in cash, so how can they still claim "non-profit" status - and why doesn't the government do something about it?

Evangelion

Since the "more established fantasy-pushers" had it first, you'd be more accurate if you said "If the more established fantasy-pushers can have tax-free status, then the Scientologists should have it too."

And in any case, Scientology was established as a money-making business, pure and simple. Now, I agree that there's plenty of cashed-up "ministries" out there whose ethics are just as questionable and whose motives are just as vile.

But unlike Scientology, Christianity qua Christianity is not a moneymaking scam, nor was it originally intended to be one.

Grad Student Humanist

Maybe Xtianity qua Xtianity is not a moneymaking scam, but there are plenty of churches, televangelists, ministries, etc. in this country which are every bit as bad as Scientology in terms of being moneymaking scams (i.e. Benny Hinn's "ministry," the PTL network, etc).

Gurdur

PITW,
the judicial decisions affecting churches, charities and tax span way back before the creation of the USA.
USA law did not emerge sui generis from a vacuum; and while it may have been a near-run thing in the USA (which, *cough* *cough* is not the centre of the Sun's orbit), the reasons underlying those judicial decisions are still very cogent.
Bear in mind Evangelion is not an American. Neither am I.


Mind you, this entire area is fascinating to me for its development of common and statute law.
Now there's a point; to be continued ....
And here we go !
The Scientologists do not get tax-free status where I live, in fact not only are they not recognised as a church or charity here, they even wind up in official reports about dangerous organizations.
Of course, owing to home political pressure, an official USA report described this deplorable state of affairs as a breach of human rights a couple of years ago.....
Irony not being an American talent, often.