Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Odemus · 07-12-2002, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
Odemus!

I've come to the overwelming conclusion that there are many atheists who have an axe to grind. You needn't go any further, it's a psychological thing. What you said in your first few posts, I can see has not been an adequately addressed or responded to.

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
As for me personally, and from a selfish perspective, I am much happier being a Christian than when I wasn't. Being on this board has been a blessing to me because I can certainly see that I've made the right choice. I hope my atheist friends don't take that the wrong way either as I've never marketed God.

God isn't a marketable commodity, He's free

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
I see a bitterness towards religion and to some degree rightfully so. Unfortunately, man has created his sense of religious-ness and has, in the process, given God a bad name. On the other hand, I don't know of any thing in this world that represents perfection...

The truth shall set you free

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
I still believe what you said earlier is right on the mark. It is basically nonsensical for an atheist to worry so much about the (non)existence of God.

Don't you find this question absolutely fascinating?I do.Of course I think me and you both know that this 'axe to grind' will one day grow into sheer intolerance, and after that hatred.

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ:
I share your view: why all the fuss?

Walrus

No fuss, we're all just having a friendly little chat

Echo · 07-12-2002, 09:47 AM

Odemus,

What is *the point* of coming to this board and badgering people about *the point* of participating on this board?

If you are intellectually curious and came to this board to ask us questions because you are genuinelly interested in learning something about the viewpoints of people who have a different perspective than you, then I think your participation here answers your own question.

But alas, for some reasons theists cannot seem to comprehend that people who share a similiar (and minority) viewpoint on a controversial subject might want to gather together to chat and to exchange ideas with like minds. It's okay for creationists to talk about why they do not believe in evolution or for ex-scientologists or ex-hare krishnas to get together and talk about why they no longer consider their former belief system valid. I suspect these situations are acceptable to people like Odemus because the subject matter is either irrelevant to Christianity (or whatever Odemus' preferred flavor of theism happens to be) or indirectly supports it.

And of course it makes perfect sense to believe a man who was dead in a tomb for three days reanimated and skyrocketed up through the clouds.

But if atheists get together to talk about issues of interest...well that's just too hard for the little theist's mind to comprehend.

Odemus · 07-12-2002, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
I do not have a disbelief. I have a lack of belief. Apparently, you've learned absolutely NOTHING from our discussion on belief vs. lack of belief. How sad.

Apparently you haven't learned that when I am discussing athiestic disbelief I am not addressing you.From this point forward I give you permission to insert the notion of unbelief where I am discussing notions of disbelief.Fair enough?Or should I perhaps show that I am able to take the semantics game to it's most extreme conclusion faster than you?

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
Many atheists would, indeed, not care so much about their lack of belief were it not for xians trying to assimilate the planet into their religion.

Why do you care that anyone would try to persuade you of anything you don't want to believe in?Life is filled with people trying to sell you happiness in some form or other, what makes Christians any different to you?

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
Strawman. Atheism makes no such claim. In fact, atheism involves no claims whatsoever: it is nothing more than a lack of belief that any gods exist.

Main Entry: athe�ism
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French ath�isme, from ath�e atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1 archaic : UNGODLINESS, WICKEDNESS
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

Any more questions about your life philosophy that you need me to clear up?

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
1. What does "higher" mean when you mention a "higher purpose?"

A measurement of meaning that has greater value than anything a person can conceivably live for outside the belief of God.

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
2. Why must life have a "higher" purpose?"

If life does have a higher purpose it wouldn't necessarily be because of any reason, it just would.

If life does not have a higher purpose, then maybe my dillusional mind would just like it to because I find that makes me happy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
3. Even if you address 1. and 2., your assertion above is an unproven one.

Oooh you set me up, I didn't see that coming.You are so wickedly and deviously clever.

From what I understand of your philosophy, all assertions with are unproven (with regard to meaning anyway), which does indeed prove my point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
I do not believe that life has some grandiose purpose, and I give plenty of meaning to my life. You are therefore demonstrably wrong.

I say your life is meaningless and you will be proven demonstrably wrong as soon as you die and can no longer debate this issue.

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
Irrelevant. I can value things now.

No more than a plant values sunlight.

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:

The reasons for atheists engaging in theists on debates are probably about as varied as atheists themselves are.

Sincerely,

Goliath

So what are yours?

Theli · 07-12-2002, 10:00 AM

Odemus...

Quote:

To the contrary, my belief in God grants me a fuller appreciateion of all these things.

Fuller than what/who?

Quote:

phlebas:
And you do the same thing. You have simply convinced yourself that your happiness will last forever.

Odemus:
What if I told you that something other than myself convinced me?

It always takes atleast 2 to be convinced. One to convince and the other to be convinced.
Tell me, how hard was it to convince you that you would live forever in eternal happiness?
How much evidence would you need for such a claim?
By the sound of things, you seem to be more responsible for convincing yourself than anyone else.
The pure wish for this to be true would most probably make you overlook any possible arguments/proof of it's falseness (is that a word?).

Quote:

It means that meaning only comes from what we make of it, no more. And yes, if seals derive meaning from eating fish, then they find meaning in it, whereas we would not. The inverse works as well - seals find no meaning in drinking, for example.

Good. I agree...
Meaning is purelly subjective.
You didn't seem to think this way when you started this topic though.

Excerpt:
"If you are right and God doesn't exist, that is if you die and simply cease to be, the only true conclusion about life is that it is meaningless."

Odemus · 07-12-2002, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:

And I am agreeing with you. Thing is, without any evidence or reason to believe that God exists to establish that standard, you are in the same boat. God is the made-up basis of your meaning. Ultimately, your ideas about God are for squat if he doesn't exist.

In that case why devote so much effort towards trying to disprove something which is so obviously erroneous to you?

Theli · 07-12-2002, 10:15 AM

Odemus...

Quote:

Goliath:
1. What does "higher" mean when you mention a "higher purpose?"

Odemus:
A measurement of meaning that has greater value than anything a person can conceivably live for outside the belief of God.

"Higher purpose" and "greater" "value" of "purpose".
Here we have a whole bunch of subjective terms. You must explain what the highest is and what kind increasement in purpose you are reffering to.
And ofcourse what relevance this has outside your own head.

Quote:

If life does not have a higher purpose, then maybe my dillusional mind would just like it to because I find that makes me happy.

Ehhh... I think you hit the nail on your head (or is it your head on the nail?) there. I wouldn't really call you delusional for desiring happiness, though. If so, we all would be delusional.
Well, most of us.

I'm still not sure what purpose you are reffering to.

Viti · 07-12-2002, 10:15 AM

IMO

Life has no ultimate purpose or "meaning", but I am here and alive and so try to make the best of things and enjoy what I feel is my one and only level of existence. I wouldn't care what anyone else believed if they did it quietly and privatly, and didn't feel the need to interfere in my enjoyment of life.

Many theists, however, actively work to make the world conform to their views by knocking on doors, pestering lawmakers to reflect their beliefs in the codes that govern our society, flying passenger planes into buildings, starting or perpetuating wars, etc and therefore get in my way.

Theli · 07-12-2002, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Odemus:


In that case why devote so much effort towards trying to disprove something which is so obviously erroneous to you?

Well, one thing you one could mention, when it comes to "fighting against theism" (bad term) is that religions are source for lots and lots of tradegies (both small and large).

When it comes to us discussing on this board...
Well, one thing is intellectual stimulation.
Another thing is knowledge, you learn much about discussing god with other people. It's such a vast concept.
And a third thing can be that we think there is something wrong with the concept of gods, wich is interfering with our lives (it's even in our own vocabulary) and we need to get that out somewhere.

The question about god(s) existence is interesting and challenging.

There probably are more reasons, but I think the ones above are enough to give you a picture.

Eudaimonist · 07-12-2002, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Odemus:
Assuming your atheism is a more correct approach to life, how does it hold more value or meaning than mine?

Speaking for myself, I don't see this as a contest. If your beliefs have meaning or value for you, that's fine with me. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that my meanings necessarily get me out of bed faster in the morning, or put more of a spring in my step.

Your religion has no satisfying meaning for me, since I consider it to contain insufficiently supported beliefs. If I tried to find my meanings in Christianity, my rationality would become my enemy and I would need to twist my brain into a pretzel just to rationalize away the lack of rationality in the religion.

I have chosen meaning and purpose in life consistent with my rational evalation of reality. In this way, I maintain my intellectual and moral integrity, so I may live authentically, which is essential to me for life to have a fulfilling meaning.

Odemus · 07-12-2002, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Echo:
Odemus,

What is *the point* of coming to this board and badgering people about *the point* of participating on this board?

How do you consider yourself to be badgered by that which you willfully subject yourself to?

Quote:

Originally posted by Echo:
If you are intellectually curious and came to this board to ask us questions because you are genuinelly interested in learning something about the viewpoints of people who have a different perspective than you, then I think your participation here answers your own question.

Are you saying that is why you come here?

Quote:

Originally posted by Echo:
But alas, for some reasons theists cannot seem to comprehend that people who share a similiar (and minority) viewpoint on a controversial subject might want to gather together to chat and to exchange ideas with like minds. It's okay for creationists to talk about why they do not believe in evolution or for ex-scientologists or ex-hare krishnas to get together and talk about why they no longer consider their former belief system valid. I suspect these situations are acceptable to people like Odemus because the subject matter is either irrelevant to Christianity (or whatever Odemus' preferred flavor of theism happens to be) or indirectly supports it.

The Secular Web mission statement:

Quote:

Our adopted mission is to defend and promote metaphysical naturalism, the view that our natural world is all that there is, a closed system in no need of an explanation and sufficient unto itself.

Quote:

Originally posted by Echo:
And of course it makes perfect sense to believe a man who was dead in a tomb for three days reanimated and skyrocketed up through the clouds.

It has worked for me

Quote:

Originally posted by Echo:

But if atheists get together to talk about issues of interest...well that's just too hard for the little theist's mind to comprehend.

One last time:

Quote:

Our adopted mission is to defend and promote metaphysical naturalism, the view that our natural world is all that there is, a closed system in no need of an explanation and sufficient unto itself.

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07-12-2002, 09:47 AM	#52
Echo Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winter Park, Fl USA Posts: 411	Odemus, What is the point of coming to this board and badgering people about the point of participating on this board? If you are intellectually curious and came to this board to ask us questions because you are genuinelly interested in learning something about the viewpoints of people who have a different perspective than you, then I think your participation here answers your own question. But alas, for some reasons theists cannot seem to comprehend that people who share a similiar (and minority) viewpoint on a controversial subject might want to gather together to chat and to exchange ideas with like minds. It's okay for creationists to talk about why they do not believe in evolution or for ex-scientologists or ex-hare krishnas to get together and talk about why they no longer consider their former belief system valid. I suspect these situations are acceptable to people like Odemus because the subject matter is either irrelevant to Christianity (or whatever Odemus' preferred flavor of theism happens to be) or indirectly supports it. And of course it makes perfect sense to believe a man who was dead in a tomb for three days reanimated and skyrocketed up through the clouds. But if atheists get together to talk about issues of interest...well that's just too hard for the little theist's mind to comprehend.

07-12-2002, 10:15 AM	#57
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	IMO Life has no ultimate purpose or "meaning", but I am here and alive and so try to make the best of things and enjoy what I feel is my one and only level of existence. I wouldn't care what anyone else believed if they did it quietly and privatly, and didn't feel the need to interfere in my enjoyment of life. Many theists, however, actively work to make the world conform to their views by knocking on doors, pestering lawmakers to reflect their beliefs in the codes that govern our society, flying passenger planes into buildings, starting or perpetuating wars, etc and therefore get in my way.

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