Ronin

Those few scriptures seem straightforward to me.

What context to you purport would justify those statements attributed to your deity?

BTW ~ you were the one who said, "her actions are not consistent with the bible's not even the OT.", so I showed how they were consistent with the christian deity using the OT.

Also, this is part of the new convenant:

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Nice and stable dude, that Jesus.

It doesn't matter who that commandment was for, Badfish, it is just a small example of the instability and utter lack of compassion, love and understanding your deity promotes.

"God changed his mind" sure is another strong example of "2 : contradictory or antagonistic qualities or attitudes."

Thanks for supporting my point.

Sabine Grant

Salut Badfish again...hug. Can I be the devil's advocate for a while though I do not consider Ronin to be any kind of " devil" at all?

We are stuck with the reality as christians that OT Laws depict all sorts of punishments supposedly prescribed by a loving God. Claiming that those do not apply to christians who live under the Covenant of Grace from the NT does not restore the image of a God who ordered the death by stoning of an adulteress for example. We cannot just " push the dirt under the carpet". Something is sort of " fishy"... Where as in the NT, we have our Christ who demonstrates how to deal with the adulteress... he challenges the OT Law, opposes her stoning and confronts an angry crowd. He picks up the woman from the dirt where she was thrown and tells her to leave and " sin no more". Obviously, Christ did not approve of the stoning law. But we maintain that both the Law and Christ's reaction to the stoning are both of God..... we are to expect that anyone would question how the Son would contradict the Father....responding with apologetic "tricks" is not going to satisfy the skeptics.

Badfish.... my usual response to such a dilemna when I am asked how I can find anything loving in the OT God's Laws is to admit that there is a vast difference between the character of God projected in those laws and how Christ handled people on His first coming. But Christ is God... so what happened?

Possibly unscrupulous individuals have claimed to be inspired by God to write such laws. Laws which empowered leaders of those tribes and implanted fear in the minds of their folks.
Grace is supposed to have taken down legalism... and I believe as a NT christian that Christ also came among us to fix the legalistic mess. He challenged the Pharisees who were the ultimate control freaks. He took down the barreers they elevated between men and God. They... many human beings who used the name of God to perpetuate crimes.

There is much more depth to Christ's words " I am the way, the truth and the light" than our acceptance of his divinity and sacrifice which warrant eternal life. There is the reality that it was time for God to manifest Himself to men directly thru Christ without a misrepresentation of His Character.

As far as Gospel verses that may be thrown at you and I agree often taken out of context, one has to be patient and place them back in the context and attempt to explain the meaning within context. For example verses which could be used to depict Christ as an individual who commanded us to hate our family members...as a christian, I recieve them as a warning that my faith may result in being rejected by family . Christ's message is consistant with the reality that in order to be devotional, faith means dealing with rejection. He warned us that claiming christian faith or that " we want to follow Jesus" necessitates the strength to be separated from those we love because of their rejection. No matter how much Peter claimed his devotion to Christ, he could not face the consequences of being a disciple of Christ and hid his identity after Christ was arrested.

I chose that example of scriptures taken out of the context because Ronin has brought them up in the past to support his determined endeavor against the character of God thru Christ. I regard Christ to be the sole authentical representation of the Character of God. So my focus remains on Christ.
We may have to understand as christians that the challenges we encounter in this forum might help us to consider scriptures with more depth. I actualy have drawn closer to Christ because of them.
A bientot, Veronique.

Badfish

I don't think he is a devil either.

What is going on here is that Christ ammended the OT laws, he had to because he came to give people salvation by grace.

God used his wrath as promised on the people of the Old Testament, God is all loving, but he is also jealous, hateful, loving, and sovereign. If God had not used his wrath he would have been seen as a liar, and liars is the one thing that God hates the most (see psalms for the 6 things God HATES)

God saw that his creations would never fulfill their expectations and all deserved eternal hell because of their depravity.

Therefore He came in the flesh as a gesture of the great love he has for his creations and made a new covenant, and now everyone who believes and repents of their sins can have salvation.

But also be wary that just because we have a new covenant, some of the OT laws still apply, and there are some sins that if not converted from will deny your entrance into the kingdom of God.

salut back at you Sabine

Sabine Grant

Interesting but which specific laws from the Ot apply and why not all of them? which sins will perclude eternal life and which do not? or do you mean that repenting from any sin is the key which implies also sins of omission?
Still being the devil's advocate... do you categorize sins as some being bigger than others or do you consider sin as part of the human nature?
Contrary to your statement, I do not believe that God is hateful since I do not attribute hateful claims men made in His Name to have been inspired by Him.
Again my focus is on how Christ treated people and responded to their needs to know the Character of God. My focus is on His ability to encourage humility, to promote healing, to challenge self rigtheousness, to motivate his followers to care for the sick, the needy, the outcast, those named the " lesser of these", to dispense charity and empathy, to promote peace rather than add fuel on the fire of conflicting egos etc....to be content with whatever little we may have, to be accessible, to be wise counselors with a genuine listening ear...... you name it ! Not quite the portrait of the Ot God.
Badfish can you see how a christian can doubt the veracity of scriptures if they contradict the Character of Christ?
I knew a wise christian from Uganda who would say to me " if you keep looking too much in the book, you forget to look up to heaven". And this humble little man was the most vibrant and authentical christian I have ever known.

Badfish

We all still sin, but what did Paul say will keep you from the kingdom of God?

If not repented from completely there are certain sinful positions that are worse than others.

Yes I do consider sin as part of our fallen human nature.


Was the flood done out of love? Was the destruction of Soddam and Gammorah done out of love?

Is Wrathfulness an attribute of love?

This is good and I agree, but we need to follow the bible and in context to acheive the connection between the OT God and the Messiah.


Yes, but we are not supposed to. Your above statement should reflect the way we are to behave in todays society. We cannot dismiss any scripture, because all scripture is God Breathed and is good for proof and reproof, and God's words are preserved. It is how we apply his word is what matters.

If we dismiss scripture we are dismissing God's word, and even Christ and the new covenant alludes and reconfirms some things in the OT, such as laws, the commandments, fornication, etc.


This is good, I agree, you don't know this (how could you), but I spend a lot of time debating and casting pearls when I should be looking up to heaven. This is going to change soon. Thanks for the reminder.

However we must use the bible in conjunction with worship, without the bible we have no record of God in which to conform our lives. Even when filled with the spirit, the bible serves as a handbook for life and should be adhered to within context and as it pertains to our life.

Badfish

What happened to Trent Dilfer?

I think we derailed the thread.

Badfish

Are you familiar with the trinity?

hezekiah jones

Originally posted by Badfish
Are you familiar with the trinity?

I could have sworn he said "Genesis."

Badfish

Are familiar with the trinity?

Who was with God before the creation of the cosmos? Why does he use we?

John 10:30
[30] I and my Father are one.


John 8:58
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 1:1-2
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.


Matthew 28:19
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:



Because there is obviously a Godhead, God refers to himself as us and our in the account of Genesis.

hezekiah jones

Originally posted by Badfish
Who was with God before the creation of the cosmos?

I'm an atheist. Don't ask me.

Originally posted by Badfish
Why does he use we?

The (human) authors (not "god") use "Elohim" occasionally.

[NT jazz snipperoonied: Irrelevant, Your Honor]

Originally posted by Badfish
Because there is obviously a Godhead ...

Oh really? I did not know that.

Originally posted by Badfish
... God refers to himself as us and our in the account of Genesis.

So when he says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," is he talking about Jesus and the Spook?