Olorin

I see. So when there is a group of people believing in something, they automatically have the "right" to assign meaning to the words they use to describe their belief? If people could just go ahead and assign any meaning to any word (exageration) the communication proccess would be pointless. Thus in order to communcate effectively (do I really need to go into this?) we should just agree on what the meaning of "omnipotent" means. Hang on - I suddenly found this:

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omnipotent \Om*nip"o*tent\, a. [F., fr.L. omnipotens, -entis; omnis all + potens powerful, potent. See Potent.] 1. Able in every respect and for every work; unlimited in ability; all-powerful; almighty; as, the Being that can create worlds must be omnipotent.

God's will and pleasure and his omnipotent power. --Sir T. More.

2. Having unlimited power of a particular kind; as, omnipotent love. --Shak.

The Omnipotent, The Almighty; God. --Milton.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
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That's right, it is not up to one group to tell another what a word rightfully means (unless you regard philologists as one group and everyone else as another). Question: were the christian theists the first ones to come up with word which eventually became the english "omnipotent"? Even if they did, that does not give them "ownership" of such intellectual property (being an adjective). Btw I highly doubt they did.

Is the doctrine of omnipotence different to the meaning of omnipotence? Is the existence of this tradition the result of the need to describe a "special type" of omnipotence, i.e. that which is not equal to the philological meaning of "omnipotence"? Are you stating that the philological and theological meanings are dissimilar?

Jack the Bodiless

Here we go again:
No, actually you must presuppose the truth of Walt Disney's version of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves in order to make meaningful statements about anything.
And when exactly will YOU demonstrate some compelling standard, Theo? I note that you have now made nearly a thousand posts on these forums. Not once have you got anywhere close to "demonstrating a compelling standard". You have merely asserted your total dependence upon a far-from-compelling fictional standard.
What is an "unbeliever", Theo? An unbeliever in what, exactly?

Where are your dwarves, Theo? Dwarves are required to underpin all that exists. Without dwarves, you can know nothing! UNBELIEVER!!!

And as for "honesty": You claim to be a "presuppositionalist". This system of evaluating worldviews uses the criterion of internal consistency. If a worldview contains internal inconsistencies, it is deemed "self-refuting" and cannot be true. If it is entirely self-consistent, it is deemed to be true.

But Christianity fails this test, and atheistic metaphysical naturalism passes this test.

Therefore no honest presupposiotionalist can remain a Christian. A Christian can "presuppose" that the Bible is true, but they cannot use the presuppositional apologetic method (PAM) to validate that belief. Hence the decidedly non-PAM doctrine that a "true Christian" is forbidden to question the validity of the Bible.

Don't pretend that you have an argument, Theo.

rainbow walking

rw: Religion is the bastion of pretense. Like children playing make believe in a world too large and complex to fathom, religion legitamizes the fears and self doubts, replacing them with assurances that a divine protectorate will somehow guide them through the obstacles.

The time has come for me to face these demons as well. After years of devoted service to the pretense I hereby declare my salvation from all such pretense. If the God I defended and trusted is out there then here is one soul that He has lost due to neglect.

But there is one good thing about theism that I think the world should adopt and never abandon and that is the concept of forgiveness. None of us are omniscient and all of us make mistakes and all of us need to be forgiven.

For me the pretense has come to a quiet but final end. I have searched my heart and mind and found it to be desolate of reasons to continue to defend the pretense. As I turn and walk away from the cross I can hear the echo of "It is finished."

I think I finally know the anguish Jesus must have felt when he cried out "My God my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I really, really wanted it to be true.

Jack the Bodiless

Rainbow Walking:

Well said. Very well said, all of it.

This may seem like a giant leap right now, but I think you've already seen how unnecessary the theistic assumption is. Without it, you're still the same person. What you thought you had was an illusion, so you haven't really lost anything.

Welcome aboard. And I hope you'll stick around.

Oolon Colluphid

RW, I am for once lost for words! Though I've never been in your position, I really feel for you now.

As Jack said, welcome aboard. The ride may be bumpy, but knowing this is all there is can make it fun too!

Very best wishes, Simon

Queen of Swords

I have been in your position, rainbow walking. And it hurts (initially). The world doesn't seem like the same place any more. When you have relied on something for a long time, it feels strange to suddenly do without it.

But that too shall pass. And this is one situation where the reality is a great deal better than the illusion - where women and men (rather than gods) take their destinies into their own hands. Nothing could be worth more to me.

No more rambling. Be welcome, rainbow walking. It's a brave new world out there.

rainbow walking

To Jack and Simon,
Thank you both for your kindness and support. My decision is MY decision and not one that I would wish to be used to create doubt for other sincere believers. I hope they too can forgive. I am not an anti-theist. Having been in prison and been a prison minister for years after, I believe that theism can benefit people who are trapped in much darker recesses of their minds and need a way out. Also for people with severe addictions I've seen christianity enable them to over come their dependencies. But, for me, it is just a bridge and not a shrine.

I'm working out of town right now so have limited access to the web but I'll be around. When I am strong enough to let go of the handrails I'll be seeking direction.

phlebas

I hope you're serious, RW. I tend to believe you because that post was the first time I saw you not use that little smiley face with the glasses

I remember when I went through the same thing. Scary and alienating on one hand, liberating and exciting on the other.

A noble sentiment, and I agree that forgiveness is a good thing. But I think you'll find that the concept didn't originate with theism, nor is it limited to theists.

Welcome aboard

rainbow walking

rw: Hi phlebas,
I suppose I've been such a party poop for so long I can hardly blame you for expressing some reservations. This is not a decision I have come to lightly but have fought, (along with its proponents), every step of the way.

phlebas: I remember when I went through the same thing. Scary and alienating on one hand, liberating and exciting on the other.

rw: I will be facing severe repercussions on the home front which troubles me deeply. Otherwise I'm relieved.



phlebas: A noble sentiment, and I agree that forgiveness is a good thing. But I think you'll find that the concept didn't originate with theism, nor is it limited to theists.

Welcome aboard

rw: Thnx. I didn't mean to imply that forgiveness was invented by christianity but to note that christianity expresses its value more so than any other world view. For instance I'm thinking of that 19 year old kid Johnny Walker. If ever the christian community was handed an icon to rally around in support of their doctrinal position this is it. But, strangely, no one seems interested in promoting the very fabric of this doctrinal attribute of christianity on behalf of this boy. It seems to me that this is the golden opportunity to show the world the superiority of christianity over other religions like Islam. But I fear the Pharisees will again triumph in Pilates court.

Gurdur

Howdy, RainbowWalking, from someone who is an atheist but not necessarily an anti-theist (my motto being if people allow others to live in peace, then vice-versa).

It's often hard to be honest, and if you're being genuine, then you're to be highly commended on your honesty here.

Good luck on the home front, and remember that there's no need to go overboard; fanaticism of any kind is usually wrong.