Freethought & Rationalism Archive

06-18-2003, 12:26 PM

I worry about stupid beliefs (about religion and other things) when they have consequences in practice.

If your stupid belief leads you to deny your child a necessary blood tranfusion, that's something to worry about.
If your stupid belief leads you to fly airliners into skyscrapers, that's something to worry about.
If your stupid belief leads you to deny abortions to non-believers, that's something to worry about.
If your stupid belief leads you to insist that homeopathy be provided for from public funds that would otherwise be devoted to scientifically authenticated medicine (this is a UK example), that's something to worry about.

That's just a few examples off the top of my head. I'm sure we could all think of lots more. I am not a recent convert to atheism. I have never been a xian. I do resent the unmerited respect that is given to religious organisations and the tremendous power that some of them wield. I don't actually spend a lot of time arguing about the existence/non-existence of god(s). I take it for granted that they are tosh. But I like this board for social reasons. It's refreshing to come here and know that one is going to meet a lot of people whose vision is not fogged by ancient fairy tales.

Hawkingfan · 06-18-2003, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
Sorry, but that's a counter-productive attitude, at least in the US. Attempting to wipe out all vestiges of religion from public life in such a religious nation creates and "us vs. them" atmosphere. And there are a lot more of them. We will have to co-exist with organized religion for a long time. Again, I don't think what he describe is characteristic of most Christians, just the rabid, albeit high-profile, ones.

I don't think it's a counter-productive attitude at all. Because there are those of us with this very attitude, atheism is on the rise (IMO). It is, in fact, "us vs. them", and there may be alot more of them; but in America, where we have organizations like the ACLU, those numbers do not matter. Christianity will be around for a long time, but I believe its days are numbered. Again, because of this attitude, there has been a serious paradigm shift in Christian's attitudes towards secular life. What you believe to be as typical Christian characteristics (non-literalist) is only a description of the modern-day Christian. Go back as early as the 50's or 60's, maybe even in the 70's, and you would find many more Christians who were literalists. It was the unrelenting secularists who have greatly help change that Christian outlook. But the work is not done.

Hugo Holbling · 06-18-2003, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
Would you not say that Ghandi's convictions were objectively superior to Hitler's? The standard being the consequences for humanity..

I would indeed prefer them, but that doesn't make them objective. There's always room for a clever rhetoritician (or me) to manouevre even here, because i can think of people who would argue for Hitler based on your standard; moreover, we have to accept your standard as a presupposition - perhaps intersubjective is a more accurate reckoning, then?

Quote:

Besides, Hume saying something doesn't make it so.

But of course, and i didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Quote:

The reasoning we use has an objective basis. It's not just used to satisfy our passions, it's used to keep us alive.

A sterling defence of instrumental reason!

Quote:

Of course, but since most of us don't believe there's much of a chance God exists, this is little more than an academic argument. If we are wrong, we lose nothing. If the theists are wrong, they lose eternity.

Hmm. I wonder if the theists would agree with the former claim?

Incidentally, Howard, i quite agree with your OP. Tolerance on the part of atheists will make fundamentalists appear more extreme, whereas a conflict mentality can only perpetuate itself, and then everyone loses.

trekbette · 06-18-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
"The consequence for the individual believer, is nothing. When you die you rot. Your beliefs rot with you, unless you've passed them off or handed them down.The consequence then, for the rest of us, of your religion's ignorance and being "not intellectually studied up" is the following:
1) Myth without factual support is claimed to be as valid as science with it's full body of factual support. Education becomes meaningless.
2) Absolute morality as derived from God and the Bible is claimed to be as valid as reasoned ethics. Philosophy and ethical reasoning become meaningless.
I argue against your religion because I want to obliterate all of your consequences, every last one of them. I want your influence out of our political system. I want your influence out of our educational system. I want your mythology kept completely apart from science. I want your bloody morals discredited and erased from the face of the globe. I want you to have to earn your human worth instead of merely pretending in order to achieve "holier than thou" standing among your peers. I want you to respect others and contribute to humanity instead of gleefully threatening that we will fry in Hell for not agreeing with you, who think you know better, because you think ignorance and myth, and fact and science, are equals."

Amen!

This is beautiful. :notworthy
I am printing this out to post on my wall. Can you site your source so I can include that in the print out?

gcameron · 06-18-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Have you ever read the Dr Seuss book The Sneetches? The one with the star-belly sneetches and plain belly sneetches? We are the plain-belly sneetches. Christians are the star-belly sneetches (TM). Muslims are star-belly's as well, but just a different color. Jews have a star, but just a little different shape, and well there have been lot's of different kinds of star-belly's throughout time. Just like in the story, they're kind of holier than thou about it to say the least. Well, just like in the story we plain-belly sneetches don't like it. We're kind of tired of it.

One of the wisest stories I've ever read, but IMO the ultimate point of it is universal, that we *all* tend to define ourselves in opposition to other categories (theist vs. atheist, american vs. iraqi, xbox fan versus playstation fan, etc.). Didn't the plain-bellies end up being just as vain as the star-bellies?

Monkeybot · 06-18-2003, 06:40 PM

For me, it seriously depends on who and what I'm surrounded by. The more believers I'm around, and the more God crap I hear in daily life, the more fervent I get about my atheism.

By contrast, when I lived in Japan and was surrounded by an entire country of people who genuinely did not give a shit about God, I was definitely a lot calmer and more apathetic about my non-belief.

phaedrus · 06-18-2003, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
Well that's kind of the point. A lot of non-believers DO give a rat's ass about the topic (and the head, the tail, the whole damn thing (just saw "Jaws" again)) long after realizing the futility of it all. I did for quite a while, but I don�t much anymore. It takes too much effort and emotional energy. [/B]

People either argue because a) they think they are arguing for some greater 'good' which rises above the religioius cacophony and is a better way for the world (that sounds like those fundies) b) they are in the process of convincing themselves fully, as they are on the learning curve as far as the standard discussions about god are concerned c) they are in the process of realising the 'futility' of arguing about one's belief structure.

Now you say many do argue after realising the futility of 'it' - well now dont we have a predicament......isnt that non-rational? Maybe just like ALL human beings, one tends to get carried away due to emotions with regard to such topics

ps: and yes from what i observed, americans seem to defend/argue atheism more fervently than others maybe due to political compulsions due the fundies like dubya?

keyser_soze · 06-18-2003, 10:04 PM

I fight it for the most selfish reason of all, I want my children to be safe. There can be no safety, when a leader of your country despises rational thought, or when there is growing support for the oppression of free thought, or rational thought.

I want my daughters to inherit a golden age, not a dark age.

yguy · 06-18-2003, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Howard
But I don't understand the internal reasons for such depth of feeling. It seems that (Caution: Tricky wording ahead) non-believers believe just as fervently in their non-beliefs as believers believe in their beliefs. (Told ya). I just can't see why.

To the degree that a person has an ego-investment in his beliefs or "non-beliefs", he will feel compelled to "win" arguments over them, because he is under the illusion that the beliefs are part of him; i.e., if they die, he dies.

Nowhere357 · 06-18-2003, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
To the degree that a person has an ego-investment in his beliefs or "non-beliefs", he will feel compelled to "win" arguments over them, because he is under the illusion that the beliefs are part of him; i.e., if they die, he dies.

Ah, I think this is an insight into yguy's motivation, and that's about all it is.

06-18-2003, 12:26 PM	#21
DMB Guest Posts: n/a	I worry about stupid beliefs (about religion and other things) when they have consequences in practice. If your stupid belief leads you to deny your child a necessary blood tranfusion, that's something to worry about. If your stupid belief leads you to fly airliners into skyscrapers, that's something to worry about. If your stupid belief leads you to deny abortions to non-believers, that's something to worry about. If your stupid belief leads you to insist that homeopathy be provided for from public funds that would otherwise be devoted to scientifically authenticated medicine (this is a UK example), that's something to worry about. That's just a few examples off the top of my head. I'm sure we could all think of lots more. I am not a recent convert to atheism. I have never been a xian. I do resent the unmerited respect that is given to religious organisations and the tremendous power that some of them wield. I don't actually spend a lot of time arguing about the existence/non-existence of god(s). I take it for granted that they are tosh. But I like this board for social reasons. It's refreshing to come here and know that one is going to meet a lot of people whose vision is not fogged by ancient fairy tales.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-18-2003, 06:40 PM	#26
Monkeybot Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 8,102	For me, it seriously depends on who and what I'm surrounded by. The more believers I'm around, and the more God crap I hear in daily life, the more fervent I get about my atheism. By contrast, when I lived in Japan and was surrounded by an entire country of people who genuinely did not give a shit about God, I was definitely a lot calmer and more apathetic about my non-belief.

06-18-2003, 10:04 PM	#28
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	I fight it for the most selfish reason of all, I want my children to be safe. There can be no safety, when a leader of your country despises rational thought, or when there is growing support for the oppression of free thought, or rational thought. I want my daughters to inherit a golden age, not a dark age.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.