Freethought & Rationalism Archive

crazyfingers · 05-01-2002, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:


The legislation establishing the NDP calls for it to be the first Thursday in May, so this is entirely a coincidence. But the human brain seeks out patterns.

Besides, how much godless commie pinko leftist stuff goes on May 1 in this country? Am I missing out on something?

I was thinking about all the imagined godless commie pinko stuff that people were so uptight about in the the 20's, 30's and 50's. Unions are, or at least were, godless commie pinko entities you know.

Off hand, when was the legislation enacted?

Toto · 05-01-2002, 03:43 PM

<a href="http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=52" target="_blank">God, Make W Faster Than a Speeding Bullet?</a> by David Corn, from the Nation On-line:

Quote:

...in 1988, President Reagan approved an amended law that set the first Thursday of every May as the day for America to pray.

But some founders were not keen on this sort of government promotion of religion. James Madison opposed governmental "religious proclamations" for several reasons, including, "They seem to imply and certainly nourish the erronious idea of a national religion." And Thomas Jefferson, in an 1808 letter to the Reverend Samuel Miller, said, "Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise, or to assume authority in religious discipline, has been delegated to the General Government." He was even against recommending a day of fasting and prayer. Doing so, he explained, would "indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises, which the Constitution has directly precluded them from." He was worried that even a suggestion from the government could be taken the wrong way: "It must be meant, too, that this recommendation [of a day of prayer] is to carry some authority, and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion."

At the moment, Jefferson and Madison are losing the debate. Shirley Dobson and Pat Robertson are winning. But what these founders might have feared--a national prayer day slipping into a day that emphasizes one religion over another--has been happening.

I called the Reverend Olgivie to ask him about his prayer--its Christian nature, and its call for supernatural powers for Bush and others. The fellow who answered the phone at his Senate office said the Reverend was too busy to talk. This aide refused to give me his full name or to provide budget information for Olgivie's office. "It's in the public records," he said and turned down my request for assistance in locating the figure. (For the record, the amount is $288,000.) I can understand why Olgivie, a former California television minister, might be shy around reporters. Last year, The Wall Street Journal published a piece on him revealing that his Senate office had accepted tens of thousands of dollars from Christian nonprofits, some of which was used to buy copies of his books he then distributed around the Senate.

...

Toto · 05-02-2002, 09:48 AM

<a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/thisjustin.htm" target="_blank">Council for Secular Humanism Decries NDP</a>

Quote:

The Council for Secular Humanism urges all American citizens who believe in the separation of Church and State to speak out against the National Day of Prayer, which is a predominantly Christian event aided and abetted by the office of the Chaplain of the U.S. Senate. The Rev. Lloyd Ogilvie, Senate Chaplain, drafted the official “prayer for America” for this event.

In commenting on the May 2nd National Day of Prayer, Paul Kurtz, Chair of the Council, said, “I am appalled to learn that the Chaplain of the U.S. Senate has written a prayer for recitation. This seems to me to be a gross violation of the First Amendment that Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. As Senate Chaplain he is required to observe the limitations of the First Amendment.”

Materials of the National Day of Prayer Task Force have been explicit in limiting participation of volunteers to those of the Christian faith. “This National Day of Prayer is an apparent attempt to cast this country as a Christian nation, which it is most decisively not, “ said Ed Buckner, executive director of the Council for Secular Humanism. “This calling for divine guidance for our secular governmental leaders reminds me of the cartoon where a character is holding onto the Bible and says ‘It’s time we put religion back in our institutions’ while a Taliban gunman looks on and says ‘Worked for us.’”

The secular community is exploring plans for a Rational Day of Thought for next year to counter the annual National Day of Prayer.

I support this group, but I think this is inept politics. You don't want to come out against prayer so explicitly, and this should have been worded with more style, wit and humor. I prefer David Corn's take.

Skid · 05-02-2002, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
I support this group, but I think this is inept politics. You don't want to come out against prayer so explicitly, and this should have been worded with more style, wit and humor. I prefer David Corn's take.

Toto - I'm curious as to why you think this is inept. I realize that coming out against prayer would most likely be met with ferocious indignation, but so what? I would *love* to see a "Rational Day of Thought" to counter the NDP. Even with tons of negative publicity by opponents, it may at least help people realize that there *are* other points of view.

I probably would have agreed with you in the past, but lately I'm getting so tired of being told implicitly that non-religious citizens just don't matter.

05-02-2002, 12:36 PM

It's sickening to see how we skeptics need to treat religion with kid gloves and always be "respectful" even though we get bashed all the time.

Remember what Bush Sr. said? Atheists shouldn't even be considered citizens.

crazyfingers · 05-02-2002, 12:51 PM

The issue here is politics and persuasion.

And not all xians are the enemy and not all xians think badly of nonbelievers. (Only about half of them think badly of nonbelievers from the latest <a href="http://pewforum.org/publications/reports/poll2002.pdf" target="_blank">poll</a> )

If we ever hope to raise the profile of nonbelievers and show more people that we are as good as the rest of humanity, then we do need allies among the liberal xians. Generally I think that the press release from CSH could have been written in such a way as to better appeal to the liberal xian sense of fairness rather than belittle their beliefs.

Toto · 05-02-2002, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark S:


Toto - I'm curious as to why you think this is inept. I realize that coming out against prayer would most likely be met with ferocious indignation, but so what? I would *love* to see a "Rational Day of Thought" to counter the NDP. Even with tons of negative publicity by opponents, it may at least help people realize that there *are* other points of view.

I probably would have agreed with you in the past, but lately I'm getting so tired of being told implicitly that non-religious citizens just don't matter.

I think it is inept because it is so humorless and self-righteous. The average citizen we are trying to influence thinks that prayer is harmless and may do some good for the person praying. And besides, no one forces you to pray or listen to prayers on the NDP, so complaining about other people praying is contrary to the spirit of toleration.

It would be far more effective to treat this as the lunacy it is. Point out tomorrow that, with all those Christians repeating the prayer for GW Bush to develop supernatural powers, that he still can't travel faster than a speeding bullet on his own power, or leap tall buildings in a single bound. Point out that, as usual, nothing fails like prayer. Point out how divisive this is - that the government sponsored prayer tries to be politically correct by not mentioning Jesus, but still doesn't meet the religious requirements of Jews, Moslims, Buddhists, Native American Church of Peyote, etc.

The only problem with a Rational Day of Thought is that every day should be a rational day of thought. We should not take one day out to be rational, and then go back to "normal". This is what those days of prayer are - one day to show that you haven't given up on the superstition, but then once you get that out of the way, you can spend the rest of the year operating as if you were an atheist.

05-02-2002, 02:01 PM

How about a state/church separation day where all citizens are reminded why it's best for gov't to be neutral towards religion?

I can always dream, can't I?

crazyfingers · 05-02-2002, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by atheist_in_foxhole:
How about a state/church separation day where all citizens are reminded why it's best for gov't to be neutral towards religion?

I can always dream, can't I?

I think that is a good idea.

Skid · 05-02-2002, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
It would be far more effective to treat this as the lunacy it is. Point out tomorrow that, with all those Christians repeating the prayer for GW Bush to develop supernatural powers, that he still can't travel faster than a speeding bullet on his own power, or leap tall buildings in a single bound. Point out that, as usual, nothing fails like prayer.

I would think that pointing out GWB's lack of supernatural powers would come across even worse than a "Rational Day of Thought". Saying "nothing fails like prayer" also seems to belittle beliefs.

Sure, no one *forces* us to pray or listen, but the government's tacit approval of a *christian* prayer is troubling. The complaint shoudn't be about the prayers, but rather the government's involvement in a formal declaration of the NDP. What troubles me the most is prayers being held in publicly owned buildings like courthouses. Prayers were held here at our county government building.

I think you guys are on to something here - it would be great to have a day to celebrate religious (and non-religious) diversity in this country. I hate the idea of a christian-biased NDP, but it sure would be great to go down to the local courthouse and hear speeches from Buddhists, Native Americans, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Secular Humanists, etc.

From that angle, it's no longer about only trying to raise the profile of non-believers, but rather affirming the diversity that can thrive in a country where church and state are separate.

I wonder what Shirley Dobson would think of that plan -- it might not qualify as "(taking) back our communities for the sake of God's Kingdom".

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05-02-2002, 12:36 PM	#25
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	It's sickening to see how we skeptics need to treat religion with kid gloves and always be "respectful" even though we get bashed all the time. Remember what Bush Sr. said? Atheists shouldn't even be considered citizens.

05-02-2002, 12:51 PM	#26
crazyfingers Contributor Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 13,699	The issue here is politics and persuasion. And not all xians are the enemy and not all xians think badly of nonbelievers. (Only about half of them think badly of nonbelievers from the latest <a href="http://pewforum.org/publications/reports/poll2002.pdf" target="_blank">poll</a> ) If we ever hope to raise the profile of nonbelievers and show more people that we are as good as the rest of humanity, then we do need allies among the liberal xians. Generally I think that the press release from CSH could have been written in such a way as to better appeal to the liberal xian sense of fairness rather than belittle their beliefs.

05-02-2002, 02:01 PM	#28
atheist_in_foxhole Guest Posts: n/a	How about a state/church separation day where all citizens are reminded why it's best for gov't to be neutral towards religion? I can always dream, can't I?

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