Bookman

Good. We're in agreement that no diet is a panacea.

I believe I said this earlier. It seems to me that the Atkins program doesn't have sufficient emphasis on fiber and nutrients like vitamins and minerals as compared to a more balanced approach which includes an emphasis on high-fiber grains and vegetables.

I don't want to play this game. You see, I suspect that if I raise the issue of "high fiber diets have been shown to reduce the risk of cancer" that you will counter asking for evidence that Atkins adherants have a higher risk of cancer. I do not, of course, have any such evidence as no long term studies of the health of high fat diets has been conducted, at least to my knowledge.

Nevertheless, I believe that a balance of foods which includes fiber, fruits, and vegetables is a requirement for good health. I certainly respect your right to disagree.

Is this degree of hyperbole necessary? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not sure what you mean with the little quotes around the words 'facts' and 'believe'. I believe that I've been clear that I am stating my opinions and that I am skeptical about some of the claims made by supporters of high-protein, high-fat diets. I too would like to see some evidence apart from personal and undocumented anecdotes.

Bookman

JGL53

I can't argue with that. But aren't you just stating the obvious?


[/B][/QUOTE] JGL & Machiavelli:
You both seem to advocate the benefits of the Atkins regime from personal experience alone. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can only speak for myself, but the only thing I advocate is that if others wish to try the diet for whatever reason, then what's the problem? You have evidence that it's unhealthy? Let's hear it.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Many skeptical people aren't particularly comfortable with accepting the validity of testimonials, myslef included. If the regime works for you, congratulations I hope you're happy. The fact that it works for you is poorly indicative of whether it will work for me or the next guy though; a testimonial cannot supplant scientific evidence in a scientific discussion. A sufficiently large number of testimonials can suggest that a phenomena be investigated in a scientific framework (which is the direction being taken with Atkins, I might add).[/B][/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more. So what's your point(s) of contention?

[/B][/QUOTE] I said it before and I'll say it again: I would not recommend the Atkins diet to anyone before seeing the results of long term studies. [/B][/QUOTE]

And I wouldn't 'recommend' it either, in the sense that you mean. I have no licence to practice medicine. I merely explain my favorable experience with it to anyone who wishes to listen. it's called free speech. I also will explain that there is a lot of evidence that it is healthy, no evidence that it is not healthy, and that it is effective for reducing excess body fat in short order (if one is interested in that), and it can in effect can 'cure' manytimes Type II diabetes, and a host of other ailments.

People are free to ignore my ramblings OR look into the carbohydrate-controlled dietary theory and see if I'm BSing them, IF they are interested in that sort of thing. Certainly I encourage others to research the topic as much as they can. I would never just take some other individuals opinion as gospel on this or any other subject, and I would never expect others to just take my word as gospel (as if someone would).

Pain Paien

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or do you normally communicate in this fashion?

Unless you disagree with the statement that people on the Atkins diet eat less carbohydrates than the average American, you are, in fact, arguing with yourself, and not me.

Also, you seem to need reminding that all of the opinions I've voiced are, of course, just opinions.

JGL53

Yes, the Atkins diet recommends less carbohydrate rich foods than the average American eats or the American government recommends.

And you STILL don't know what the Atkins diet is - you just think you do (see post below).

JGL53

Apparently you have never read Atkins for Life, his latest book that spells out in greater detail what the maintenance diet is. (You and others persist in confusing the induction diet as THE Atkins diet - I have almost given up trying to explain this to you - it seems hopeless).

No doubt it would be beneath you to waste your time reading such drival, but the AFL book shows quite plainly that one will get plenty of fiber, vitamins, minerals, antioxidents, etc on a controlled carb plan. So, like Pain Paien, you are continuing to attack a straw man (will I ever get this across to you two? I've tried several times now, and apparently the rhetorical answer is "no".).

Pain Paien

I didn't attack the Atkins diet at all, so obviously it must be you courting the straw man. It is also apparent that you simply refuse to comment on what I actually say. Since I'm now positive that you will simply ignore any clarification I offer, it's probably wise to simply stop trying.

Dune

-and it can in effect can 'cure' manytimes Type II diabetes, and a host of other ailments. -
I find that statement extraordinarily dangerous. Even to put cure in quotes is to grossly misrepresent the nature of the diet and diabetes.

But beyond that.
The diet itself does have merits in some aspects
1) it is, in essence, a caloric restriction diet. So you loose weight that way.
2) the scavaging of protien from muscle seen in many low calorie diets is lessed by the consumption of protien.
3) Carbs are the 1st thing the body stores either as glycogen in the liver or in adipose tissue
4) By reducing carb intake, insulin secretion is reduced which would, in effect, decrease storage of fatty acids in adipose tissue.

On a clinical note, in my practice I have seen the positive results of the diet in many of my patients.

However,
1) The constant consumption of lipids seems to be dangerous in the fact that it will incrase triglycerides and for those who are predisposed to heart disease, this can be very dangersous
2) ketoacidosis can occur in those who do not carefully monitor their ketone levels while in the early stages of the diet especially.
3) The restriction of variation in food could, IMHO, result in people not adapting a lifestyle change more than attempting a quick fix and soon be back to gaining weight.
4) Lack of vitamins in patients are not careful in monitoring their intake.

I am going to do more research.....But I am concerned about the effect longterm on cardiac health.

Godot

Are you discounting changes in cancer risk due to increased fat intake? Or is your primary focus cardiology related initiatives?

ps418

Suprisingly, perhaps, the research to date does not support these concerns. For instance, HDLs increased by 11%, and triglycerides decreased by 49% in Atkins dieters, compared to an increase of HDL 0% and a decrease of triglycerides 22%, in one study compaing Atkins to a low-fat diet. To boot, weight loss, a major risk-reducer, at least initially tends to be greater in Atkins. So, the initial indications are fairly promising. Below are refs and findings from two new studies of low-carb diets published last week in the New England Journal of Medicine, both of which again showed favorable changes in heart disease relevant measures. For the rest, see page 2 of this thread:


Samaha et al, 2003. A Low-Carbohydrate as Compared with a Low-Fat Diet in Severe Obesity. NEJM 348:2074-2081.



Foster et al, 2003. A Randomized Trial of a Low-Carbohydrate Diet for Obesity. NEJM 348:2082-2090.

Patrick

Godot

Just a point of clarification with regards to the Samaha et al. study Patrick cited, they concluded with this caveat:Of course, rates of attrition and compliance are an issue when dealing with dietary studies. Also, the morbidly obese are frequently chosen as subjects because of the likelihood of maximising the effect size of the study; a noticeable effect would be much more unlikely to be found using a less malleable (no pun intended) cohort.