Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Consequent Infidel · 06-29-2003, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
Hi Sphinx wui,

I have a couple of questions. If the Koran states that you are only to have 4 wives, why did Mohammed break this and marry 12?

because he is THE PROPHET, he is a special case and "allah's" orders do not apply on him exactly as the other "normal" muslims.

I recall Aisha's quote for him when "allah" "revealed" a verse stating that its ok for muslim women to "give" themselves for the prophet for marriage, she said "I see Allah quickly granting you your desires" .

that quote speaks volumes about this 'relevation'..doesn't it?

livius drusus · 06-29-2003, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
Ephesians 5
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Welcome to IIDB, EstherRose. I don't want to derail this thread with a discussion of the above passage, but you might be interested in an earlier discussion of women and christianity which addressed some of the inequity issues involved in Paul's statement.

EstherRose · 06-29-2003, 04:54 AM

Thanks, looks interesting so far.

Consequent Infidel · 06-29-2003, 05:14 AM

hi sphinx.

wh are you so angry? relax my friend....

Quote:

Consequent Infidel wrote,

what the hell is a "muslim culturally" ?? you'r either a muslim or you'r not.

What the hell you are speaking about? Which language you speak? if you are living in Cairo, who built it? What you say when you meet people in Egypt, how you great them and from whom you got it? What you studied about Egyptian history in the last 1400 years, Mickey Mouse? What is your day off in Egypt? What are the feast days in Egypt? What is the most common name in Egypt? You never played soccer in street series in Ramadan after decorating your street with colored pulps and cartoon mosques? What is the nickname of Cairo? Have you ever heard of Salah Eldin and visited his castle? Have you ever-visited Islamic Cairo and have a diner in Alhussein square?

- I speak the egptian-arabic because its now the offical language used here..what does that have to do with what ou mentioned? how does that makes me a 'muslim' ?

- I live a secular life without any interference of religion.

- I do not fast in ramadan..duh.

- I do not give a damn about the islamic traditions you mentioned.

- I view the ancient islamic cairo and old mosques as monuments..nothing more...just like the pharaonic and Coptic monuments .

I don't see how does all that puts me in the term you invented, "a muslim cultrally" .

Quote:

I read in one of your �intellectual posts� that you made �an extensive research� about religion to discover the fallacies of Islam, honey it doesn�t need a rocket scientist to understand that all those religious books are bogus, all it needs is a 6 years old kid with common sense to reach to this conclusion. When a book tells you that an ant spoke with her fellow ant or a snake spoke with a woman or an ass spoke with a man, it doesn�t need extensive research Mr. Einstein.

you are here simplifing the issue of belief a little bit too much...don't you think , omar?

Quote:

BTW, would you please enlighten me about what you mean by Barsoom" rules and I will be more than happy to hear your opinion about Christianity and the bible.

I was only kidding, you need to lighten up a bit...

and my opinion on christianity? christianity is as redicilous and retarded as islam.

bye.

River · 06-29-2003, 09:26 AM

-hinduwoman

---Do you know that there are thousands of Hadiths? Do you know that there exists a scholarly field called " Science of Hadiths' which carefully traces back to the source of transmission , validity and reliability of the author as well , the manner in which it was repeated? This is not an area that is even debated by Orientalists. " Science of Hadiths" is real. So now that you know that a " system of narration" exist....ask yourself ...Is the piece I just presented legit? Do you know Hadiths were made by thousands of individuals? Do you know that no Muslim considers Hadiths the words of G-d?

---Why are you always so antagonistic to Islam? Just out of curiosity, are you from Hinduvta?

"Rivers"

River · 06-29-2003, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hinduwoman
Cannot resist this:
The Brahmins changed the ages of Ram and Sita to make them more acceptable to their audience. The changes must taken taken place very early, since ancient literutre accepts those ages as the right ones, say at least 2000 years ago.
So this proves that the Hindu masses even 2000 years ago were morally superior to Muhammad and the Arabs.

I dont understand. Why are you endorsing the changing of Scriptures. Doesnt' that nullify the concept of Divinity or Divine Word?

River · 06-29-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by EstherRose
Hi Sphinx wui,

I have a couple of questions. .....

Glad I'm a Christian. My husband and I believe in what our bible tells us.
color]

I am not sure why you are asking sphinx any questions if you are not doing it out of sincerity. As can be seen from your statement : "Glad I'm a Christian. My husband and I believe in what our Bible tells us. .......this type of attitude or mindset will keep you closed from ever understanding Islam from the perspective that Muslims see it.

Inconnu · 06-29-2003, 12:32 PM

Whats wrong with whores?

Rational BAC · 06-29-2003, 01:07 PM

We are all whores in some way or another if given the loose definition of whore that Sphinx uses.

Language can end up so loosely defined that it has no real meaning at all. And that is true in this case.

hinduwoman · 06-29-2003, 06:40 PM

Rivers,
all the quotes I use are from the four sahi Hadiths, which as you know are considered to be sound.
Sure the hadis are not the words of Allah, but they are sunnah and form the basis of Shariah, do they not? Shariah has many outdated laws which are justified by the Hadiths.

I am not from Hindutva as such, but it does not take Hindutva to make a Hindu distrustful of Islam. Our history is littered with massacres and oppression by Islamic authorities in the name of their faith. Don't bother saying, they were not real muslims, they were following the dictates of Koran regarding treatment of polytheists and the conquerers gloated over their success over infidels. Today we find many Indian muslims unwilling to change and hating hinduism deeply for no other reason than that it is not Islam. Won't say that Hindus are angels, but one cannot be at peace with people whose first principle is "I shall not tolerate you".

As for relgious texts, I am afraid that Hindu vision of them differe from Semitic one. Frankly sacred texts are a non-issue. Hinduism is not a revealed religion: result we have oodles of sacred texts, each of which is as valid as the others even if they contradict each other. Since Hindu tradition was largely oral people happily went on making changes to them. Ramayana for example has 350 versions approximately and people following one of them regards it as true as other versions. There is no immutable Divine Word in Hinduism though some would like to claim the Vedas as such. But then there are many groups within Hinduism which do not regard Vedas as supreme texts.
"Let a thousand srutis tell you that fire is cold; it will not be true" --- Adi Shankara.

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06-29-2003, 04:54 AM	#63
EstherRose Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 183	Thanks, looks interesting so far.

06-29-2003, 09:26 AM	#65
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	-hinduwoman ---Do you know that there are thousands of Hadiths? Do you know that there exists a scholarly field called " Science of Hadiths' which carefully traces back to the source of transmission , validity and reliability of the author as well , the manner in which it was repeated? This is not an area that is even debated by Orientalists. " Science of Hadiths" is real. So now that you know that a " system of narration" exist....ask yourself ...Is the piece I just presented legit? Do you know Hadiths were made by thousands of individuals? Do you know that no Muslim considers Hadiths the words of G-d? ---Why are you always so antagonistic to Islam? Just out of curiosity, are you from Hinduvta? "Rivers"

06-29-2003, 12:32 PM	#68
Inconnu Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: here Posts: 121	Whats wrong with whores?

06-29-2003, 01:07 PM	#69
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	We are all whores in some way or another if given the loose definition of whore that Sphinx uses. Language can end up so loosely defined that it has no real meaning at all. And that is true in this case.

06-29-2003, 06:40 PM	#70
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Rivers, all the quotes I use are from the four sahi Hadiths, which as you know are considered to be sound. Sure the hadis are not the words of Allah, but they are sunnah and form the basis of Shariah, do they not? Shariah has many outdated laws which are justified by the Hadiths. I am not from Hindutva as such, but it does not take Hindutva to make a Hindu distrustful of Islam. Our history is littered with massacres and oppression by Islamic authorities in the name of their faith. Don't bother saying, they were not real muslims, they were following the dictates of Koran regarding treatment of polytheists and the conquerers gloated over their success over infidels. Today we find many Indian muslims unwilling to change and hating hinduism deeply for no other reason than that it is not Islam. Won't say that Hindus are angels, but one cannot be at peace with people whose first principle is "I shall not tolerate you". As for relgious texts, I am afraid that Hindu vision of them differe from Semitic one. Frankly sacred texts are a non-issue. Hinduism is not a revealed religion: result we have oodles of sacred texts, each of which is as valid as the others even if they contradict each other. Since Hindu tradition was largely oral people happily went on making changes to them. Ramayana for example has 350 versions approximately and people following one of them regards it as true as other versions. There is no immutable Divine Word in Hinduism though some would like to claim the Vedas as such. But then there are many groups within Hinduism which do not regard Vedas as supreme texts. "Let a thousand srutis tell you that fire is cold; it will not be true" --- Adi Shankara.

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