Daleth

Sorry, Helen, but that's not at all true in my experience. Mind if I'm quite personal? I must have had my first orgasm in the cradle. There is no first time in my memory. I know that when I was 2.5 I moved into a house where I had to share a bedroom with 3 sisters, and that the lack of personal space annoyed me because I didn't feel as free to masturbate, although I had no idea that's what I was doing. (And my older sisters remember my keeping them awake, to my chagrin.) My sexual habits were well established before I was 2.5. I did not experiment with other kids, but I was not a social child so that's no surprise. My partner played sex games with little girls that included touching and kissing each other's genitals until he was about 7 years old and determined that girls were gross and had kooties. He remembers all of this fondly, and wishes he hadn't turned down a little girl who once suggested going further. Neither of us was ever sexualized by an adult.

As for primates in the zoo, it has no bearing on anything, but I remember when I was very young my oldest sister proclaiming with glee, "Oh look! He's playing with a little toy!" It wasn't a toy. She has yet to live this down.

HelenM

Ok, fair enough, Daleth. Thanks for sharing your own experience.

Helen

Amen-Moses

Not just primates all mammals, I have kept a wide variety of pets and they not only engage sexually from a young age they also have no inhibitions about interspecies sex or same sex or well anything really.

Primates are just more intense about it all, i.e having hands allows them to experiment more.

Bonobos are never kept in Zoos for a very good reason, noone even the Dutch, can cope with their non-stop sexual activity it is just far too shocking to our frail human sensibilities. Bonobos are genetically our nearest relatives btw.

It took me about 6 months to get my son to stop masturbating in front of others, luckily just before he was due to start play school at around 3 and half, but I'm sure he still does so when he is alone in his room. I think part of the difference is that my children aren't sent to Sunday school to be told how sinful such behaviour is and they don't have parents threatening to punish them for such behaviour either, I remember my father saying he would beat me if he saw me touching myself and even putting my hands in my pockets was sure to rile him up, mind you he was educated by nuns!

Amen-Moses

Daleth

No problem. Hope I wasn't crossing any lines by being that explicit. I'm not at all a "private" person, and as such I'm not always sure when it's not OK to tell things to others.

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): I think I was right this morning, Koyaanisqatsi--you seem to have misunderstood something I've said, and so I'm unsure what you're talking about. Could you try again?

HelenM

I'm not aware of any IIDB rules against being as explicit as you were. But I'm sure the moderators will let you know if there are any. Even if there are, they would just edit your posts and explain why by PM if you wanted an explanation - they wouldn't be upset with you for inadvertently crossing a line that wasn't clearly visible to you.

If what you wrote bothers individual posters they don't have to read it.

Helen

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): I think it varies with the child, certainly. As other posters have testified, it can be spontaneous, self-actualized and at ages as early as 2 1/2. And I think the direction that the curiosity takes will vary as well. There's just no cut-and-dried answer to those questions.

(Fr Andrew): I'm not saying that I think sexual hangups result from children not engaging in sexual activity...I'm saying that I think sexual hangups result from social attitudes and irrational, archaic taboos conflicting with the natural urges of children (and other people :-)).
I think we should leave them alone to go at their own pace and in their own direction (with an eye toward the oft-repeated caveats). I think their world would be brighter and freer (i.e., fewer hangups)--and the next generation after them even more so.

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): And I suggest we leave it there.
Thanks for the chat.

Ronin

No problem.

Anytime at all, Fr.Andrew.

Ronin

My personal experience investigating cases of CSA are distinctly graphic and disturbing and support the additional reasons I have offered in order to directly address the the OP ~ "why children should not experiment with sex at whatever age they become interested...and in whatever direction their curiosity takes them."

I will elect to refrain from offering any of these details as I have found that personal anecdotes adversely effect any rational discussion on emotionally charged topics.

I am greatly impressed with most of the participants in this discussion remaining true to the open and honest examination of the OP...as can be verified by the fact that...this go around...we didn't manage to get the thread locked by a mod.