Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Baloo · 03-18-2003, 12:27 PM

I'm just bumping this thread to address Theo's question earlier. Though I posted it over a year ago, my calculator (same one) is still here on my desk, and the "God Check" program still exists. Anyone wants to be a messenger for the Christian god, please state your 32-digit "sign" below.

xian · 03-18-2003, 01:08 PM

i dont think God would give in to your test.
God has given you enough evidence already. Capitulating to a "god-check" program is not necessary. you have chosen, and your excersise of free will is more important than God revealing Himself on you according to your will.

Which brings to bear my bet for you. Like you, I have a little "atheist check" program.

you will die, just like everyone else.

and if you wake up and see the Greatest Possible Being before you, I wager that you will not be surprised.

Baloo · 03-18-2003, 01:29 PM

Quite eloquent, xian - care to explain why Jesus gave into Doubting Thomas's little "Resurrection Test"?

-> editted to add: By the way, this thread is only directed to Christians who make the positive assertion that NOTHING would get me to search for God. This thread = QED

xian · 03-18-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baloo
Quite eloquent, xian - care to explain why Jesus gave into Doubting Thomas's little "Resurrection Test"?

-> editted to add: By the way, this thread is only directed to Christians who make the positive assertion that NOTHING would get me to search for God. This thread = QED

no doubt, GOd has allowed man to test Him. This is seen most especially with Gideon in the OT and as you correctly point out with Thomas in the NT.

But in all cases, these people were already theists who genuinely wanted to believe as opposed to looking for ammunition to use against other believers. In your view, you seem to gain at God's silence, while those who tested God in the Bible had great gain from God's confirmation and tremendous loss if that confirmation was not forthcoming.

"Furthermore, if their guess is wrong, they give me great ground for the argument that their God either does not exist, is not omniscient, or does not want me to take steps to believe in Him. That is what I gain, if I win. Simple "betting-odds mathematics" basically demonstrate that from my point-of-view, the gain from "winning", multiplied by the overwhelming natural odds of winning, exceeds the "loss" of 5 years of my life."

Dargo · 03-18-2003, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
no doubt, GOd has allowed man to test Him. This is seen most especially with Gideon in the OT and as you correctly point out with Thomas in the NT.

But in all cases, these people were already theists who genuinely wanted to believe as opposed to looking for ammunition to use against other believers.

You forget, that many of us were once theists who genuinely wanted to believe. The reason we no longer believe in god is because he failed to provide us any reason to believe. It hardly seems fair that people in the bible were given clear evidence that god existed and people today get nada.

xian · 03-18-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dargo
You forget, that many of us were once theists who genuinely wanted to believe. The reason we no longer believe in god is because he failed to provide us any reason to believe. It hardly seems fair that people in the bible were given clear evidence that god existed and people today get nada.

hey i hear you friend. i've gone through that many times. i wish God would give me an empirical proof that I can perceive with the 5 senses. but i realize i don't need such because I have all the evidence I need, and that perhaps God wants people to believe, to trust, to seek, and to choose rather than to appear and impose.

In any case, if there is no God, my life was not miserable as a result.

but I am much more free now, both emotionally, spiritually and mentally, now that I believe in God. It is a liberating experience, like a great wave has liften the scales from my eyes, where chains of doubt and oppression have been broken, and i feel like a dolphin swimming in an infintie sea of crystal blue water.

ok ok, i know your response after reading that lovely piece of poetry is probably this: :boohoo:

hehe. well its true tho, that is how I felt when I converted.

emur · 03-19-2003, 05:29 AM

Quote:

but I am much more free now, both emotionally, spiritually and mentally, now that I believe in God. It is a liberating experience, like a great wave has liften the scales from my eyes, where chains of doubt and oppression have been broken, and i feel like a dolphin swimming in an infintie sea of crystal blue water.

xian,

That is how I felt after I walked away from evangelicalism and its God.

Such experiences are nice, but have little to do with determining reality in the world around us.

Mel

xian · 03-19-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emur
xian,

That is how I felt after I walked away from evangelicalism and its God.

Such experiences are nice, but have little to do with determining reality in the world around us.

Mel

yea, i know experiences are not a test for truth. but nontheless, thats how I felt.

atheists have powerful experiences; so powerful that they even write books on them (Dan Barker) or go on "rational" crusades (Robert Ingersoll) talking about their "freeing" experiences when they embraced naturalism.

keyser_soze · 03-19-2003, 08:23 AM

78765432343290897645334975307426

I'm channeling god now....

Damn, the reception sucks. Did I get it right? If so, you are absolved, since god speaking through a lowly atheist, with a strong need of caffeine or rest can't be playing fair.

7thangel · 03-19-2003, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baloo
Okay, so this is a challenge I developed while dating a theist who INSTISTED that I leave at least one opening for God to come into my life. What I came up with was so useful that I've used it ever since, whenever confronted with the "What would it take?" question. For God to reveal himself to me, all he needs to do is reveal a number to one of his followers in whatever manner he chooses. The follower can then relay that number to me (the number is simply a string of 32 digits). I then feed the number into a simple calculator program that generates a random 32-digit number and compares them. If they are the same, the follower, aided by God, has passed the challenge.

One thing I want to do is keep this challenge honest. And, in all honesty, there are naturalistic explanations (varying from a very sophisticated foul-play maneuver on behalf of a theist, to a "bug" in my two line program, to a glitch in the calculator's CPU, even to the actual possibility of one hundred thousand million billion trillion to one odds being beaten). So, sadly, getting this right will not, on it's own merit, make me into a Christian. However, the naturalist explanations, under close scrutiny, are so improbable that I have committed myself to the following:

If the number is matched, I will dedicate the next 5 years to
A) Reading the bible at least 30 minutes every night.
B) "Praying", to the best of my abilities, prior to every sit-down meal as well as before going to sleep, a prayer that minimally includes the lord's prayer, but is also my very best effort to "talk" to Jesus.
C) Attending 2 church services per week, and participating in all church rituals, from singing hymns, to reciting credes, to partaking in communion.
D) Informing all theistic friends and family of my 5-year saga, in order to form a "support group" for my efforts.

And most importantly:
E) Doing A through D while doing my whole-hearted best to shun any anti-belief skeptical thoughts, through whatever amount of will-power and thought-control I can muster. Also, to the best of my ability, I will adopt a "supernatural until shown natural" attitude towards any experiences I have which might be deemed "religious" in nature.

That is it. That is exactly "What it would take". And with this challenge, I also stick very diligently to my next proclamation: This is the ONLY door open to God through which he can begin to reveal himself to me. ALL other attempts will be AUTOMATICALLY assumed to have naturalistic explanations, regardless of whether I know what they are.

Any theists so inclined may feel free to list out a 32 digit number. Hell, just ask God to guide your fingers, and punch out 32 digits. One condition: you (like my ex-g/f) only get one guess.

And as one final note, let me just say that I do take this very seriously. I did check my g/f's guess, I checked the guesses of three theisitc friends of mine, and I have my calculator right in front of me, ready to check whatever guesses are offered.

If I get the number, should you not follow my commands?

03-18-2003, 12:27 PM	#111
Baloo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 417	BUMPED FOR THEOPHILUS I'm just bumping this thread to address Theo's question earlier. Though I posted it over a year ago, my calculator (same one) is still here on my desk, and the "God Check" program still exists. Anyone wants to be a messenger for the Christian god, please state your 32-digit "sign" below.

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03-18-2003, 01:08 PM	#112
xian Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Earth Posts: 378	i dont think God would give in to your test. God has given you enough evidence already. Capitulating to a "god-check" program is not necessary. you have chosen, and your excersise of free will is more important than God revealing Himself on you according to your will. Which brings to bear my bet for you. Like you, I have a little "atheist check" program. you will die, just like everyone else. and if you wake up and see the Greatest Possible Being before you, I wager that you will not be surprised.

03-18-2003, 01:29 PM	#113
Baloo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 417	Quite eloquent, xian - care to explain why Jesus gave into Doubting Thomas's little "Resurrection Test"? -> editted to add: By the way, this thread is only directed to Christians who make the positive assertion that NOTHING would get me to search for God. This thread = QED

03-19-2003, 08:23 AM	#119
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	78765432343290897645334975307426 I'm channeling god now.... Damn, the reception sucks. Did I get it right? If so, you are absolved, since god speaking through a lowly atheist, with a strong need of caffeine or rest can't be playing fair.

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