Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Opera Nut · 09-05-2002, 07:05 PM

Talk to the LIving Wage Coalition for the facts on that one, instead of that "My business will collapse" Chamber of Commerce Crap (TM) that the bidnessmen put out. They say that every time the minimum wage goes up ten cents an hour.

Or talk to the AFL-CIO.

Dr. Martin Luther King came to the conclusion before he was killed that social justice and equality with whites was nothing without economic justice (Fair, living wages for everyone, no matter what color.) That is what made him truly threatening to the economic establishment. They think that the capitalism they practice (not free market because they have bought off all the politicians to stay hands off and not regulate them), their monopoly and plutocracy, is wonderful for everybody.

Trickle-down is really Trickle-On.

People that make living wages have more money to circulate in the community which helps others' incomes as well (but not at Wal Mart).

People who make starvation wages can't buy cars, refrigerators, computers, big screen TVs adn all that other stuff that makes the economy go.

ImGod · 09-06-2002, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut:
<strong>People who make starvation wages can't buy cars, refrigerators, computers, big screen TVs adn all that other stuff that makes the economy go.</strong>

But that redefines "living" wage as "living the american dream" wage. I'm all for paying people fair wages for work, profit sharing, etc.., but hopefully the arguement for needing a raise goes beyond trading the 27" TV for the 42" HDTV.

09-06-2002, 07:47 PM

To alliviate poverty increased wages is not necessarily the answer because many middle income families suffer from poverty and are actually in soup-lines (in Canada we have soup-lines so people can declare their poverty).

From my point of view a Democracy declares war within its own boundry among its own people. "The land of the free" suggests that all is fair game and let the best man win. Of course there are laws to be obeyed but they are often directed to protect the rich and hinder the retalliation of the poor (such as flat rate fines and limited resources to seek justice).

This being the case the goverment (who declares war on the poor), should protect the poor and often less educated from the cunning persuasion of the rich and they should at least teach them to spend their money wisely and not be exploited by the rich (eg, finance companies should by outlawed and saving money should encouraged).

Our schools are a dissaster and exist only to pre-select potential winners because only the top half is needed and educated to find gainfull employment. The rest can just get a job as an unskilled worker and actually become the target for exploitation by the top half.

The Chamber of Commerce is ruthless and seems to exist locally to fine-tune the democratic war against the nations losers (which is obvious).

From my point of view it is probably OK that we are willing to finance our children's future but I think it is unfair that we expect the Church to sell its historic wealth to heal the wounds of our modern Democratic inequities.

A better plan? You don't want to hear because that would even make sullster mad.

emphryio · 09-06-2002, 09:34 PM

Quote:

I think it is unfair that we expect the Church to sell its historic wealth to heal the wounds of our modern Democratic inequities.

It wouldn't do any good even if they did.
But still I just can't remember where in the bible it even remotely suggests that christians should hoard wealth or spend so much of it on pretty buildings.

(BTW, I like your liberal point of view, Amos.)

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: emphryio ]</p>

Opera Nut · 09-06-2002, 10:31 PM

I'm not living the american dream....where I live I HAVE to have a reliable car and a refrigerator and central air conditioning. (you yankees quit sneering -- you come down here and bake for 6 months out of the year!)

I have an old Pentium 133 computer, running WIndows 95.
I have a 28K modem, I have a 19 inch TV.
I DO NOT have cable TV.
I DO NOT have a cable modem.
I am using the same stereo amp and speakers I got in high school 30 years ago.
I never go out to eat except to burger joints.
I have not been on a real vacation in ten years.
Taxes and insurance are eating me up.

YOu want to talk about the educational & economic underclass? I am in the educational top echelon, I have a Juris Doctor degree and two others, yet I have been unemployed for more than 5 months since 1996 when my career collapsed. I fell out of the middle class and haven't bought anything new in a very long time. Same thing happened to my BF, he has a BS/MS in physics, he fell out of the mdidle class in 1993 when he got canned from a 60 hour a week engineering job for no real reason but greed.

So tell me what is the deal? By normal economic standards I should be earning far more money than I did in the 80s. I have nothing to show for 25 years of hard work in my prior job. I don't want any sympathy just an explanation of what the hell happened in the early 90s.

Nobody can pay all their bills on minimum wage.
In fact you can earn a lot more than minimum wage and still not pay your basic bills. I don't buy clothes, I don't run up credit cards buying worthless crud.

If we should make it on minimum wage, which is $10,000/yr, why are families eligible for some forms of aid if the family income is up to $40,000?? Isn't the govt acknowledging by that figure that minimum is not nearly enough?

Opera Nut · 09-06-2002, 10:34 PM

I meant to say that I have not had any job that lasted longer than five months, since 1996. I have high blood pressure from my previous career's unreal stress, and peopel are so overworked today that everybody seems to be about to explode. Even getting shocked out of bed by an alarm going off is enough to make me nervous all day and set my BP off. I take medication for it.

Josiah · 09-07-2002, 12:25 AM

I think all of this is evidence that the system NEEDS to change. It sounds trite, but the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and there's no denying it. Institutions that claim to be there to help do nothing but wallow in their decadence. Republicans whine about the lazy poor. "It's their own fault!" Yeah right. The system will change or else the problems will build up until change is forced upon it.

Brahma's atheist · 09-07-2002, 02:04 AM

Jaimie L

Quote:

The above link shows a pic of my local behemoth cathedral (located in Upper Marlborogh Maryland near D.C.). The pic doesn't give the whole picture

'Fucking Hell!'
It's an impressive folly though isn't it?
I remember seeing a news report from S.America. It was on a rubbish dump and there were people scrabbling around for scrap. The reporter said they hed got money together to build a cathedral. Sure enough they showed the half finished waste of money. 'Why aren't you spending it on health care or houses?' I thought. Ridiculous.
You should see the pornographic temples in India. Pretty damn amazing except that they are surrounded by open sewers and diseased beggers and mess.

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09-05-2002, 07:05 PM	#31
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Talk to the LIving Wage Coalition for the facts on that one, instead of that "My business will collapse" Chamber of Commerce Crap (TM) that the bidnessmen put out. They say that every time the minimum wage goes up ten cents an hour. Or talk to the AFL-CIO. Dr. Martin Luther King came to the conclusion before he was killed that social justice and equality with whites was nothing without economic justice (Fair, living wages for everyone, no matter what color.) That is what made him truly threatening to the economic establishment. They think that the capitalism they practice (not free market because they have bought off all the politicians to stay hands off and not regulate them), their monopoly and plutocracy, is wonderful for everybody. Trickle-down is really Trickle-On. People that make living wages have more money to circulate in the community which helps others' incomes as well (but not at Wal Mart). People who make starvation wages can't buy cars, refrigerators, computers, big screen TVs adn all that other stuff that makes the economy go.

09-06-2002, 07:47 PM	#33
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	To alliviate poverty increased wages is not necessarily the answer because many middle income families suffer from poverty and are actually in soup-lines (in Canada we have soup-lines so people can declare their poverty). From my point of view a Democracy declares war within its own boundry among its own people. "The land of the free" suggests that all is fair game and let the best man win. Of course there are laws to be obeyed but they are often directed to protect the rich and hinder the retalliation of the poor (such as flat rate fines and limited resources to seek justice). This being the case the goverment (who declares war on the poor), should protect the poor and often less educated from the cunning persuasion of the rich and they should at least teach them to spend their money wisely and not be exploited by the rich (eg, finance companies should by outlawed and saving money should encouraged). Our schools are a dissaster and exist only to pre-select potential winners because only the top half is needed and educated to find gainfull employment. The rest can just get a job as an unskilled worker and actually become the target for exploitation by the top half. The Chamber of Commerce is ruthless and seems to exist locally to fine-tune the democratic war against the nations losers (which is obvious). From my point of view it is probably OK that we are willing to finance our children's future but I think it is unfair that we expect the Church to sell its historic wealth to heal the wounds of our modern Democratic inequities. A better plan? You don't want to hear because that would even make sullster mad.

09-06-2002, 10:31 PM	#35
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	I'm not living the american dream....where I live I HAVE to have a reliable car and a refrigerator and central air conditioning. (you yankees quit sneering -- you come down here and bake for 6 months out of the year!) I have an old Pentium 133 computer, running WIndows 95. I have a 28K modem, I have a 19 inch TV. I DO NOT have cable TV. I DO NOT have a cable modem. I am using the same stereo amp and speakers I got in high school 30 years ago. I never go out to eat except to burger joints. I have not been on a real vacation in ten years. Taxes and insurance are eating me up. YOu want to talk about the educational & economic underclass? I am in the educational top echelon, I have a Juris Doctor degree and two others, yet I have been unemployed for more than 5 months since 1996 when my career collapsed. I fell out of the middle class and haven't bought anything new in a very long time. Same thing happened to my BF, he has a BS/MS in physics, he fell out of the mdidle class in 1993 when he got canned from a 60 hour a week engineering job for no real reason but greed. So tell me what is the deal? By normal economic standards I should be earning far more money than I did in the 80s. I have nothing to show for 25 years of hard work in my prior job. I don't want any sympathy just an explanation of what the hell happened in the early 90s. Nobody can pay all their bills on minimum wage. In fact you can earn a lot more than minimum wage and still not pay your basic bills. I don't buy clothes, I don't run up credit cards buying worthless crud. If we should make it on minimum wage, which is $10,000/yr, why are families eligible for some forms of aid if the family income is up to $40,000?? Isn't the govt acknowledging by that figure that minimum is not nearly enough?

09-06-2002, 10:34 PM	#36
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	I meant to say that I have not had any job that lasted longer than five months, since 1996. I have high blood pressure from my previous career's unreal stress, and peopel are so overworked today that everybody seems to be about to explode. Even getting shocked out of bed by an alarm going off is enough to make me nervous all day and set my BP off. I take medication for it.

09-07-2002, 12:25 AM	#37
Josiah Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Berkeley, CA Posts: 9	I think all of this is evidence that the system NEEDS to change. It sounds trite, but the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and there's no denying it. Institutions that claim to be there to help do nothing but wallow in their decadence. Republicans whine about the lazy poor. "It's their own fault!" Yeah right. The system will change or else the problems will build up until change is forced upon it.

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