Toto

I'm glad we can agree on this. The framers of the Constitution held a variety of beliefs - it is only in this secular age, looking from a distance, that we lump them all together as "Christian." The one thing that they put into the Constitution was that the government was not going to dictate theology.

But here I lose you. We're not talking about a statue of the Goddess Nike, which would be classsified as Art and not Religion. We're not talking about a historical document, such as the Declaration of Independence, that was written according to the issues of the day. We are talking about the official Pledge, amended in 1956 to read that this is one nation "under God." Not "founded by people who believed that God gave them rights" or anything that might be even arguably historically accurate, but "under God." The phrase not only indicates that God exists, but that God is "up there" governing this country - a particular brand of theology that not even all god-believers would agree to.

The problem is not that some of us are offended (or bored or amused) by this Pledge, it is that the government is putting its official stamp of approval on a certain brand of theology. That's the violation.

BTW - the government is already defunding those art works that you find so objectionable, and also the rest of our artistic heritage. That's another subject.

Rhaedas

It's interesting that the moves to remove "under god" and IGWT, as well as other items placed on public property, such as the numerous 10C monuments, are looked upon as evil...and yet if they were trying to keep islamic statements off a capital building, or wiccans from performing ceremonies before a gov't meeting, it would be a good thing.

Why is it considered an attack on christians when really the point is to maintain an equal and non-preference treatment to ALL beliefs? There's never been mention of replacing In God We Trust with No Gods Allowed Here...we just want an impartial gov't, period.

Can't Christianity compete with other beliefs on equal footing?

And whether or not the founders were deists, catholic, muslim, whatever, the principle of the 1st amendment is what's important...impartiality of the gov't to its citizens' point of view. They could have been all fundamentalists, but they wrote down that all beliefs should be viewed impartially by the gov't, even their own.

Kevbo

No one is forcing you to DO anything? Could you please explain how the federal government is not forcing me to support Judeo-Christianity when it requires me to use federally-sanctioned notes that declare support of this religion in all my financial transactions? If I want to buy anything in this country, I have to do it with pieces of paper that declare a religious preference.

The Pledge is required to be lead in the public schools of most states every morning. If a student wishes to join in this mandatorily-led expression of patriotism, he/she must declare allegience to God as well as country. How is this an acceptable thing to be sanctioned by a congress bound by the Constitution?

Calzaer

Uht-oh.. Suburban made me pull out the infamous .txt file again...

***
From a post made long ago on a bulletin board far, far away...

One of the most common statements from the Religious Right is that they want this country to "return to the christian principles on which it was founded". However, one only needs to do a little research into American history to discover that the individuals who were responsible for building the foundation of the United States wanted nothing to do with christianity, and were in fact directly opposed to it.

When the founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike. They wanted to ensure that no one religion could make the claim of being the official, national religion, such as England had. Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention religion, except in exclusionary terms. The words Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, and God are never mentioned in the Constitution.

Most of the Founders were Deists (and also Freemasons), which is to say they thought the universe was created by a god, but that he was no longer in the universe, or that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of people. Some people believe that if Charles Darwin had lived a century earlier, the Founding Fathers would have been atheists. Most of them were stoutly opposed to the bible and the teachings of Christianity in particular.

If the Christian Right Extremists wish to return this country to its beginnings, so be it... because half a century after the establishment of the United States, clergymen complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. In a sermon that was reported in newspapers, Episcopal minister Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, protested in October 1831: "Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism." The attitude of the age was one of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought. The Founding Fathers would turn in their graves if the Christian Coalition had their way with this country.


***

George Washington never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From: George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp.16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

According to Rupert Hughs, Washington went out of his way NOT to invoke the name of Jesus. For example, the Continental Congress of 1776 decreed a day of fasting and prayer "to confess and bewail our manifold sins...through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ." When Washington repeated this to his troops, he omitted the reference to Jesus Christ. When looking for servants, Washington emphasized that he wanted a good person, and that it was fine that if they be "Mohammedan, Jew, Christian, or atheist." On his death bed,
Washington reportedly never mentioned God nor religion. He also left no money for religious causes in his will. (source: Richard Shenkman, LEGENDS, LIES, AND CHERISHED MYTHS OF AMERICAN HISTORY, William Morrow and Company, New York, 1988).

***


John Adams was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievements" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, a.k.a. the Treaty of Tripoli, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From: The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC)

(Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York, NY) )

(Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.)

~More Quotes~

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816


"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson


"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."
- letter to John Taylor


"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."


"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"


"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"
-letter to Thomas Jefferson


"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."


"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"


"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."


***

The third president of the United States was Thomas Jefferson. He had been the author of the Declaration of Independence and the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. In an age of great men Jefferson was remarkable for his wide-ranging curiosity on many subjects. He helped the United States get started, and his plans for the future helped it grow. Many of the good things Americans enjoy today have come from Jefferson's devotion to human rights. Jefferson is often called the founder of the Democratic party. Many other groups also claim to follow his principles. He developed the theory of states' rights, which was against giving much authority to the federal government. He is known to everyone as the author of the ringing statement in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, that among their inalienable rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. His writings have stood as a torch to the defenders of individual freedom, in spiritual as well as in worldly affairs.

(Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. )


~Quotes~


"All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable."
-(Thomas Jefferson's original wording on the Declaration of Independence).


"All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights."
-(Wording as revised by congress).


"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"


"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787


"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
- to John Adams, 1803


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813


"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
- to Carey, 1816


"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-in his private journal, Feb. 1800


"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it.
- to Carey, 1816


"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham,of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."
- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820


"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin. 1. That there are three Gods. 2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing. 3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith. 4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use. 5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822


"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822


"Let us, then, fellow citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of a bitter and bloody persecutions."


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."


"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."


"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823


"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."


"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."


"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanatacism and fabrication."


"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."
-Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


"... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself."
- letter to Horatio Spofford, 1816


"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."


"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
-letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814


***


The fourth president of the United States, James Madison, was much like the other Virginia presidents--Washington and Jefferson--who went before him. Like them, he loved his home state only a little less than his country. Like them, he was a rich man who gave his whole life to public service. He was an able student of politics and government who brought real knowledge and skill to his job. In public office Madison was a calm, reasoning statesman who governed by force of logic. In a time when emotions ran high, he made common sense prevail. He was not always successful in dealing with foreign nations, but history has shown that he had right and justice on his side. He entered the presidency at a time when war clouds hung over the young nation. He saw his country through the disastrous War of 1812, and his final months in office produced the "era of good feeling" that lasted for many years. He did well as secretary of state and as president, but his greatest record was made earlier. For his outstanding work on the nation's charter, Madison is known as the Father of the Constitution.

(Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.)

~Quotes~


"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."
-James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN 0-8975-298-X. pp. 237-238


"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785


"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both,superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785


"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774


"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."


"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches


***

Then, of course, there's Thomas Paine, who could also be considered a founding father (but whom few Religious Fundies have ever actually heard of, for some reason). He doesn't get his own encyclopedia entry, because I'm lazy.

~Quotes~

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From: The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)


"As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of atheism; a sort of religious denial of God. It professes to believe in a man rather than in God. It is a compound made up chiefly of man-ism with but little deism, and is as near to atheism as twilight is to darkness. It introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body, which it calls a redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self between the earth and the sun, and it produces by this means a religious or an irreligious eclipse of light. It has put the whole orbit of reason into shade."
--Age of Reason, Part One


"What have ye still to offer against the pure and moral religion of deism, in support of your system of falsehood, idolatry, and pretended revelation?"
--Age of Reason, Part Two - Refering to Christianity


"They will now find that I have furnished myself with a Bible and Testament; and I can say also that I have found them to be much worse books than I had conceived. If I have erred in any thing, in the former part of the Age of Reason, it has been by speaking better of some parts than they deserved."
--Age of Reason, Part Two (Preface)

Autonemesis

Who cares? That isn't what we're talking about.

No, you're not. You can and maybe even do lobby your congresspersons to change the laws and policies that result in art getting funded. There is no constitutional mandate for nor prohibition against government funded art. The arguments for and against the NEA have little relevance to the 1st amendment establishment clause. But there is a clear constitutional prohibition on government establishment of religion. The two questions you want to conflate are hardly analogous.

As I said, it's not about being offended. And anyway, I do not think you would really be sorry if I was offended.

nogods4me

Well, I see Calzaer has done my job for me, and quite admirably too. Thanks.

It amazes me that every instance in which one of the founders, and yes, I include Paine in that group (but that is for another thread), mentions god, the Xtians use this as proof of their christianity, what BS, a closer look at what they said and how they lived would give lie to that idea in an instant. Maybe Suburban should take a look at what Jefferson did to the bible to make it palatable to himself. Do they consider Osama a christian every time he mentions god? Can many of them not get it through their thick craniums that there are more people in this world who do not believe that jesus was the son of god than there are those who do? Or does being in that minority merely reinforce the persecution complex that they seem to wallow in?

Suburban

In response to Calzaer:

Why do y'all mix up RELIGION with God?? Very rarely do the two have anything to do with one another.

Religion is of MAN. It can be, and has been, quite badly corrupted by MAN throughout history. Why do you think the Founders wanted no part of a theocracy?? Hell, *I* want no part of a theocracy!! But, to tell me that having "thou shalt not murder" and thou shalt not steal" and "thou shalt not bear false witness", etc. displayed on public grounds and in the classroom and in the courtrooms of America is an establishment of RELIGION, and a bad thing, is so utterly preposterous it is beyond words.

As for "every time God is mentioned", you need to READ what the Founders SAID...quit taking their quotes out of context and you'll be able to glean the true meaning of what they said.

Apparently you missed my post concerning the critique of Paine's Common Sense.

Ab_Normal

I'll jump in briefly to say: Religion certainly is of MAN, and as an atheist, I also think that *religions* make up *gods*, not the other way around.

The Other Michael

The "etc." you are leaving out includes "thou shalt have no other gods before me" and similar stuff which most certainly is religious.

However, if you want to post the 6 or 7 commandments (that is, the non-religious ones), I might be able to go for that. I think children and felons across the United States should certainly be reminded of the dangers of seething a kid in its mother's milk.

cheers,
Michael

JamesKrieger

"Under God" in a government-sponsored pledge infringes on people's consciences. Christians will say, "Hey, you don't have to say the words "Under God"...just leave them out and ignore them." However, this puts the atheist in a difficult position...either not say it, and risk revealing his beliefs to his peers (which he may not want to do), or go against his conscience and lie. No one should be put in such a position in a public classroom setting. I know of individuals who have been beat up at school simply because their peers discovered they didn't believe in God. For example, read Alonzo Fyfe's experience as a child:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread....ce&pagenumber=6

Here is an excerpt:



"Under God" in the pledge constitutes an establishment of religion. It is divisive, not inclusive. It should have never been put there in the first place.

Do you think that a schoolteacher should be allowed to ask a child, in the middle of class, "Do you believe in God?" If not, then how is having the phrase, "under God" in the pledge, any different? It is nothing other than an indirect way of asking someone if he/she believes in God.

In both situations, a child is forced to reveal his/her belief system, or lie. No one should be put in such a situation in a public classroom setting.

Don't you think that people should have the right to keep their religious beliefs private if they wish? "Under God" in the pledge doesn't allow such a thing. Thus, it is a violation of the first amendment, and is unconstitutional.