luvluv

The Other Micheal:

Sir, I made comments ABOUT HER ATTITUDE. I did not say she was a pimp. I will edit the statment to that effect. But I stand-by that statement because I think it is accurate. I won't fight you or disobey you if you make the decision to edit out that statement. It's your board.

I made several explicit restatements to the effect that I too did not consider Shea to belong to the category of an actual pimp, but I stand by my statement that her attitude in the quotes I used for the initial statement reflects that of a pimp.

I hope you are acquainted enough with me by now to know that I do not toss around random insults out of a lack of self-control. The statement I made is one I have considred the consequences of and in the end I believe it is an appropriate comment, particularly given the extensions and revisions I've made concerning it. Her argument sounds very much like the arguments I've heard made from and on behalf of pimps. I realize that this is a jarring and potentially offensive comment, but I also happen to believe it is accurate. I understand the risks such a comment entails and I am willing to endure them. I don't have a problem with you editing out the statement if you feel it is necessary. I would think that banning me from the forum would be extreme, and if it came down to that I would probably edit out the statement.

However, I am saying that excluding threat of banishment, I will not DELETE the statement. You can, that is your business. Morally, I think the statement, however potentially offensive, is worth the risk because it brings clarity to what it is that the supporters of pornography are really supporting.

I happen to think I have a pretty good reputation around here for taking and not giving back. I am not going to insult somebody just for my own personal gratification. But I am also not going to sugarcoat over reprehensible attitudes on the MORALITY discussion forum. If you think that merits banning, then that is your concern. I would like to discuss it with you beforehand, and have you make your case to me as to why this comment is so egregious. But other than that it is your call. Frankly, I think too much has been made of the comment already.

I do apologize to Lady Shea for whatever offense the comment may bring to her, but it is in the same manner that a doctor might apologize for the pain of administering a shot. I am sorry that it hurts, but if it has to hurt to help, I am not sorry for doing it.

(I realize that sounds condescending and high-minded. I don't like sounding like that. But I cannot edit the above statement out, because that is how I really feel.)

Harumi

Luvluv, so you think pornography is wrong, so what's your solution? All this time you've been saying it's wrong, but other people have explained to you solutions to make it so that the situations you've pointed out would lessen. And yet you STILL think it's wrong.

Another was that you feel that certain things should not be made public. Well, for other people, it is perfectly fine, and as it is their body, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to do it, so long as they're not hurting anyone else in the process. In fact, I've met people who literally compete with others just to get onto porn magazines such as Playboy. They're disappointed when they aren't. Obviously they not only enjoy what they're doing, they want it.

Do you still think that's wrong?

So it seems that your reasons were just little excuses to cover up your real reason: that you just don't like it, and apparently, if you don't like it, no one else should like it either.

[edited because I was lazy and failed to read the entire post I hate it when I do that!]

beastmaster

No doubt what you do with your body affects your mind. But I'm not convinced any particular mental state follows inexorably from any particular action. Plenty of people derive genuine satisfaction from occupational/recreational/no-emotional-ties sex. Emotional basketcase or selfish a-hole are scarcely the only two outcomes.

Don't forget, self-abnegation affects your mind too.

Well, basically, I trust people to act in their own perceived self-interest. If a woman thinks she's better off fucxking some guy for money, who am I to say no?

I would not be averse to seeing some legal protections in the pron industry focusing on harm-reduction.

Is it ok to hum a Nirvana song - to derive satisfaction from an entertainer in the process of destroying himself emotionally?

Viti

luvluv, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you a virgin? Did it ever occur to you that some, even many people could enjoy sex as just a physical act? I'll tell you something even more shocking...sometimes people enjoy FUCKING and at other times MAKING LOVE. COAS is married...she can go enjoy having sex with women while making a film, then go home and enjoy intimacy with her husband...this is not an either or scenario.

Your argument is from personal feelings and maybe from your addiction. YOU objectify these women and you feel guilty, that's YOUR problem not the rest of the worlds.

I think its terrible that some women hate their work in porn...and if I see any indication of a woman crying, or looking scared, or obviously stoned beyond comprehension or anything of that nature in a film I would never buy from that producer again, and I would tell everyone I knew that they should boycott that company as well. The videos I buy the women all seem to be having fun...I particularly like Ona Zee and Vivid.

I could give a fuck if you think I sound like a pimp...but this is outrageous...I don't need your help.

If you really care about these young people, why not volunteer with street kids? 60% of kids on the streets are there because they were kicked out of or ran away from their Christian homes because they are gay...many of them turn to prostitution because they have no other choice. This is a much bigger problem IMO than anything that happens in the legal high end porn industry

beastmaster

Harumi, FWIW, luvluv is not advocating prohibition. He is challenging us to defend the morality of viewing porn, as he said above:

Harumi

Oops. My sincerest apologies Luvluv.

I'll change my post accordingly.

Ion

Gee, people.

Why talking so much?

Just do it.

(I mean sex).

luvluv

beatmaster:

Of course not, but the emotional basketcases are too numerous to simply dismiss out of hand.

I don't think declining to watch porn puts me in danger of any seriously destructive self-abnegation. I would prefer to call it an attempt at self-control.

Well, again, I would refer you to the distinction I made for Lady Shea. The difference is that the act of singing is probably not hurting Cobain. It was probably the best part of his day. But the act of participating in pornography probably is hurting a substantial portion of the performers. That is the difference.

And frankly, if I thought someone was burning themselves out as a singer, and singing to the point where it was destructive to his health, I wouldn't support it. I wouldn't feed anybody's habit if I could help it, particularly severe ones.

Lady Shea:

That's a negative. Pretty inexperienced by normal human standards, though.

I don't doubt that many of them do. My argument centers around the substantial portion who do not. The fact that some of them might love it is irrelavent to my argument.

(And I would remind you folks that this is a movie. For those of you unfamiliar with the process, this means that these people have to go at it for upwards of 8 hours, whether they are excited or not (at least the women, kinda wouldn't work if the men weren't excited) in front of strangers. I don't care what you like to do, having to do it in a movie would make you hate it after a while. Just MHO from having worked a little in the industry. Even among those who like sex, I doubt the whole thing is one big good time. It is probably work, at the end of the day.)

My argument doesn't really have anything to do with my problems (though I won't deny having them). As you say, men objectify women in every walk of life. My problem is with the well-being of the women involved. They are in emotionally critical states whether I (personally) objectify them or not, as a result of particpating in the porn industry.

That would be fine, Shea, if you were in a postion to see that, but a lot of it happens in places and at times when you can't see them. The porn producers certainly aren't going to put it in the movies. So should we just pretend this isn't happening? The girl from the special did all of her crying and had her nervous breakdowns offscreen. I'd imagine that hers was not an isolated case. And since women like her are scattered throughout the industry, how can one justify the morality of the industry.

christ-on-a-stick

LadyShea -

GREAT POST.

luvluv,

I would suggest that you read LadyShea's post twice if necessary. She is right on the money.

At risk of this being labeled as an "ad hom", I would like to stick my neck out to say that it *does* sound to me as though you are "projecting" a bit based on your (admitted) addiction.
Can you consider this as a possibility or are you absolutely certain that you are having difficulty looking at the issue without your personal guilt issues coloring the view?
I couldn't agree with this more. IIRC your previous hypothetical question was something about "could you feel justified in gratification from an image that you knew was [paraphrasing here] someone experiencing emotional pain or damage from it".

Frankly, if I knew (either from its apparency on film or inside personal knowledge) that an actor or actresses' work was causing them great emotional distress, it would probably not be arousing to me. I enjoy seeing women (and men) HAVING FUN and enjoying, *gasp* even celebrating their sexuality, even raw sexuality... and trust me, many of them DO. A LOT.

luvluv

coas:

Can you pick out the specific portions of my argument which may be influenced by guilt? I think I made a pretty objective case. I may be harboring a little guilt, that might be why I care so much, but I don't think any portion of my argument has anything to do with my personal guilt.


Again, how would you know? This girl that they featured, I think her porn name is Annabelle, appears to be pretty popular. Before that expose, how many of her fans do you suppose knew that she had suffered multiple nervous breakdowns and several suicide attempts since she began acting in porn films?

I'm really not trying to make my case from the standpoint of prudishness. I want, as a matter of fact, I think God wants everyone to enjoy their sexuality to the greatest extent possible while respecting themselves and their bodies and the great responsibility and opportunity that our sexual natures have given us. I think porn trivializes sex more than celebrates it, to be honest. It encourages masterbation more than anything else, which is not exactly the highest height to which human sexuality can reach.