Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AdamWho · 04-20-2003, 04:42 PM

I can't find the verses right now, but thre are verses exhorting people to make music in praise of god. Most fundementalist I know of really need bi-weekly praise music to recharge emotionally.

Opera Nut · 04-20-2003, 11:20 PM

Ipetrich, you CANNOT get clean without soap or detergent.

A little basic chemistry here: Soap and detergents have a pH of 7 (neutral) to 10 or 12 (highly alkaline/basic). Grease and dirt tend to be slightly acid. That's why baking soda or washing soda increase the effectiveness of detergents in your washing machine, raising the pH. Primitive soaps are made from ashes and lye.

Soap and detergents have surfactants in them. Surfactants break the surface tension of globs of oil. Ever seen a sink full of greasy water and then dropped a bit of liquid soap on an oil glob? The glob immediately starts shooting bits out from itself and dissolves rapidly. That's what soap does, it disperses the grease by breaking the surface tension, so it is evenly distributed thru the water and can be rinsed away. Modern detergents are much better than old fashioned soap at getting you and your clothes clean.

Soap also provides a mechanical cleaning function. WHen you take a cloth and scrub your skin, you are performing mechanical abrasion of the dead skin cells, exposing new skin cells, and killing most of the surface germs that normally live on the skin and in the pores. The bacteria come back in a few hours. Bacteria are what makes sweat smell. Sterile sweat does not smell. The bacteria in the pores interact with it and break it down.

(I'm glad that biology degree I got is useful in some tiny degree...)

Second point about smelly Pilgrims: I found the quote about the Natives from Lies My Teacher Told Me, Chapter 3, The Truth About the First Thanksgiving, Page 79. The author spends a lot of time talking about the virtual wipingout of native americans due to plagues such as smallpox and measles, and continuous wars from the English attacking them.

"The scarcity of disease in the Americas was also partly attributable to the basic hygiene practiced by the region's inhabitants. Residents of northern Europe and England rarely bathed, believing it unhealthy and rarely removed all of their clothing at one time, believing it immodes. The Pilgrims smelled bad to the Indians. Squanto 'tried, without success, to teach them to bathe,' according to Feenie Ziner, his biographer. "

footnote #19 to this paragraph states "It wasn't only the pilgrims: Queen Isabella boasted that she took only two baths in her life, at birth and before her marriage, according to Jay Stuller, "Cleanliness," Smithsonian 21 (February 1991): 126-35.

as well as the boosk quoted: Feenie Zinmer, Squanto, (Hamden Conn.: Linnet Books, 1988), 141. See also Jennings, The Invasion of America, 48-52; Robert Loeb, Jr., Meet the Real Pilgrims (Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1979)23, 87; and Warren Lowes, Indian Giver (Penticton, British Columbia: Theytus, 1986).
===

Fundies need the biweekly praise service to recharge emotionally to recover from the you-are-a-worthless-piece-of-shit doctrine spoken from the pulpit by male authority figures.
:banghead:

Talulah · 04-21-2003, 05:05 AM

The Instrumental music prohibition that I think you are referring to is only in church, and doesn't extend to outside worship. [Church of Christ] doctrine states that the bible only says to "sing and make melody in your hearts" and sing "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs" (no mention of instruments). Singing is considered one of the 5 points of worship in the church of Christ. (sing, pray, teach, communion, etc...i know there is another one but I forgot.)

And yes, instruments are mentioned and supported by God in the Old Testament, but that is just FURTHER proof that if God had wanted instruments being used in the church he would have said so.

Silence is prohibitive, is a tenet of that doctrine, in most cases. Except in matters of 'expediancy.'

Now, I was raised being allowed to listen to pretty much what I wanted outside of church. Well, what I wanted as long as my parents didn't hear it, because they didn't come in and listen to what I had the radio tuned to.

Intrestingly enough, I noticed when I was growing up that a lot of my friends listened to 'Christian rock exclusively.' I wasn't encouraged to listen to Christian music, and wouldn't have been allowed too anyway, as it was instrumental. So I listened to secular music while my Baptist friends filled their ears with Michael W. Smith and friends. I could have listened to accapella tapes of hymns, but obviously, it wasn't as fun.

The reason I wasn't challenged on my musical tastes was because I listened to the same music my parents did until I went to college: country. I wasn't at college but a few months before I started listened to other things and buying cds of my currently enduring favorites (angry radical women music). My mother decided it was her prodject after that to make me change my tastes (which consisted of telling me how 'bad' the people I listened to were and how I was filling my mind with 'filth') THEN, they started hounding me about how much money it must have cost to buy all those 'evil' cds. My mother was looking up everything she could find on Tori Amos and the Indigo Girls on the internet to have ammo. Never give up, never surrender!

Maybe I should write an article called 'Christian parents, give up when your daughters listen to Tori Amos'

beth · 04-21-2003, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
(Believe it or not, John Ashcroft believes that calico cats are particularly evil). We have superstitious bastards like this running our government???

Where did you hear this? This seems so farfetched, unbelievable if it's true...

Radorth · 04-21-2003, 07:22 AM

Quote:

That's not the opinion McDowell

Sorry, if Paul and McDowell disagree, I'll go with Paul. The question (as usual) is what the motives of your heart are when you are doing something. Jesus said there was "music and dancing" when the prodigal came home, so he obviously didn't think such activities were wrong in and of themselves.

"..whatever enters a man from the outside cannot defile him...From within, out of the heart come evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness"

It's Jesus once again telling us the problem is not external, but internal.

Rad

Radorth · 04-21-2003, 07:27 AM

It's a great marvel how many implacable atheists were raised fundie, legalistic Christians, subjected to useless external cleansing by parents and leaders not unlike the Pharisee's in their thinking.

The latter (and often the former) would never understand what Paul meant when he said, "the strength of sin is the law."

Rad

beth · 04-21-2003, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
It's a great marvel how many implacable atheists were raised fundie, legalistic Christians, subjected to useless external cleansing by parents and leaders not unlike the Pharisee's in their thinking.

The latter (and often the former) would never understand what Paul meant when he said, "the strength of sin is the law."

Rad

Yes, religious abuse does often cause an adversion to religion. It would be nice if parents actually thought about what they were doing to their kids.

BeansRBad · 04-21-2003, 08:05 AM

BOBZAMMEL
"One of the stranger Christian doctrines apparentally is that "Instrumental music is a sin". There are huge debates on it. The main argument is that since it's not used in the New Testament(Although it is in the old)than it must be sin. I suppose using the computer, driving the car, and using the bathroom are also sins too. "

BEANSRBAD
Hello Bobzammel,

I hope all is well with you. Certainly there are a few professed Christian groups which prohibit the use of mechanical instruments of music in their worship services. The Primitive Baptists and perhaps the Greek Orthodox Church (I may be wrong on the latter and stand to be corrected) being two but the one group which is probably best known for it's opposition is the Church of Christ. While I am now, happily, an atheist, I am a former member of the Church of Christ who also did some foreign mission work while a member of this group.

I will refrain from going into the Biblical minutia as to the "proof" for their opposition as entire books have been written on the subject - many of them. It may come as surprising to many how rich a subject this is in all actuality. But, believe it or not, the issue is not musical instruments in and of themselves. There are underlying Biblical principles which undergird the opposition and these are bedrock to Church of Christ doctrine and practice. The instrument became merely a concrete battleground upon which the battle over these principles have been fought and it was thrust into the limelight in 1859 when Dr. L.L. Pinkerton introduced the Melodian into the worship of the church at Midway, KY. The instrument became a case study for differing interpretations within the Restoration Movement.

The opposition ultimately resides in the claim that mechanical instruments of music lack Biblical Authority for New Testament Christianity. The Churches of Christ, being Sola Scriptura, speak of two types of authority; Generic and Specific. Some fo the more popular examples of each are as follows:

GENERIC AUTHORITY: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature..." The Christian is obligated by command to be evangelistic. The "go and preach" portion is not optional but there are no verses specifying how this is to be done, yet, there must be means by which the command is carried out. Therefore, the command is generic in that it generically authorizes walking, going by plane, on the internet, via mail, train, boat, audio tape, video presentations, study booklets, etc.

SPECIFIC AUTHORITY: Noah was told to build an ark of Gopher wood. This, they say, is specific. Any wood other than gopher wood is automatically excluded by the fact that Gopher wood was specified.

They believe that one must have Biblical authority for all they do in the work and worship of the church. They seek to establish this Biblical authority in any of three ways: Direct statement or command; approved apostolic example; and/or necessary inference.

When looking at the music verses in the NT (especially Eph.5:19; Col.3:16), they say the command is to "sing" and to "play" in addition to this directive is to "go beyond" that which has been authorized which, they say, is a sin. If, they say, playing were subordinate to singing and is merely an aid, then, certainly it would be authorized generically. However, they maintain that the two are equal in import - *Twinkle Twinkle Little Star*, whether sung or played is equally recognizable as being the song *Twinkle Twinkle Little Star*.

In short, when looking at the New Testament verses concerning music for the worship of the church, they see neither a direct command or statement for the use of instruments, an approved apostolic example, nor is it necessarily implied (a whole argument concerning the Greek word "psallo" erupted at the beginning of the 20th century over this point but was largely squelched in one debate between N.B. Hardeman and Boswell).

You mentioned the driving of cars and the use of computers and the bathroom. I hate to play Devil's Advocate (I harbor no affection for the C of C, I assure you!) but they would probably reply that there is no sin in these things so long as you do not do them in the worship of the church. They would say that driving a car is fine but it is not if you do so as an act of worship.

They would agree with you 100% that mechanical instruments were fully used and approved of Jehovah in the Old Testament. David, in particular. However, they would rebut this by stating that Christians are under the New Covenent, not the Old and the references to instruments in the Old, numbering in the hundreds, are conspicuously absent from the New Testament. They would say that to justify instruments by an appeal to the Old Covenent likewise justifies animal sacrifices and the myriad of other things which were quite appropriate under "The Law". Then they would hit you with Gal.5:4.

I think that most of the responses to your inquiry have confused the issue thinking that members of the church of Christ believe that music itself is a sin. This is false. Members of the Church of Christ listen to, and enjoy, all manner of Secular music and many play instruments themselves. The prohibition lies in the worship of the church.

Another related issue is the hermeneutical approach to the silence of Scripture. Instruments are not mentioned in the New Testament with regard to the worship of the Church here on Earth. How are we to regard silence? Some regard it as permissive while the Churches of Christ regard it as prohibitive unless anything not mentioned can be established by necessary inference, approved apostolic example, or direct statement.

I'm sorry if this has been too long and banal but hopefully it helped to some small degree toward answering your question. Trust me, though, this has been brief! LOL

Opera Nut · 04-22-2003, 12:50 PM

Yeah the Church of Christ is a bunch of idiots. I went to a girl's wedding some years ago in a Church of Christ with no music.

Really dumb.

AdamWho · 04-22-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Yeah the Church of Christ is a bunch of idiots. I went to a girl's wedding some years ago in a Church of Christ with no music.

The Church of Christ Disciples allows music but this might be a totally different branch.

Has anybody been in a church or religious band? I was in the church band at a Pentecostal church. A couple of us were in a heavy metal Christian band called Zeal. When ever I think about it I nearly die with embarrassment.

04-21-2003, 08:05 AM	#28
BeansRBad Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: USA Posts: 34	The instrumental music question BOBZAMMEL "One of the stranger Christian doctrines apparentally is that "Instrumental music is a sin". There are huge debates on it. The main argument is that since it's not used in the New Testament(Although it is in the old)than it must be sin. I suppose using the computer, driving the car, and using the bathroom are also sins too. " BEANSRBAD Hello Bobzammel, I hope all is well with you. Certainly there are a few professed Christian groups which prohibit the use of mechanical instruments of music in their worship services. The Primitive Baptists and perhaps the Greek Orthodox Church (I may be wrong on the latter and stand to be corrected) being two but the one group which is probably best known for it's opposition is the Church of Christ. While I am now, happily, an atheist, I am a former member of the Church of Christ who also did some foreign mission work while a member of this group. I will refrain from going into the Biblical minutia as to the "proof" for their opposition as entire books have been written on the subject - many of them. It may come as surprising to many how rich a subject this is in all actuality. But, believe it or not, the issue is not musical instruments in and of themselves. There are underlying Biblical principles which undergird the opposition and these are bedrock to Church of Christ doctrine and practice. The instrument became merely a concrete battleground upon which the battle over these principles have been fought and it was thrust into the limelight in 1859 when Dr. L.L. Pinkerton introduced the Melodian into the worship of the church at Midway, KY. The instrument became a case study for differing interpretations within the Restoration Movement. The opposition ultimately resides in the claim that mechanical instruments of music lack Biblical Authority for New Testament Christianity. The Churches of Christ, being Sola Scriptura, speak of two types of authority; Generic and Specific. Some fo the more popular examples of each are as follows: GENERIC AUTHORITY: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature..." The Christian is obligated by command to be evangelistic. The "go and preach" portion is not optional but there are no verses specifying how this is to be done, yet, there must be means by which the command is carried out. Therefore, the command is generic in that it generically authorizes walking, going by plane, on the internet, via mail, train, boat, audio tape, video presentations, study booklets, etc. SPECIFIC AUTHORITY: Noah was told to build an ark of Gopher wood. This, they say, is specific. Any wood other than gopher wood is automatically excluded by the fact that Gopher wood was specified. They believe that one must have Biblical authority for all they do in the work and worship of the church. They seek to establish this Biblical authority in any of three ways: Direct statement or command; approved apostolic example; and/or necessary inference. When looking at the music verses in the NT (especially Eph.5:19; Col.3:16), they say the command is to "sing" and to "play" in addition to this directive is to "go beyond" that which has been authorized which, they say, is a sin. If, they say, playing were subordinate to singing and is merely an aid, then, certainly it would be authorized generically. However, they maintain that the two are equal in import - Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, whether sung or played is equally recognizable as being the song Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. In short, when looking at the New Testament verses concerning music for the worship of the church, they see neither a direct command or statement for the use of instruments, an approved apostolic example, nor is it necessarily implied (a whole argument concerning the Greek word "psallo" erupted at the beginning of the 20th century over this point but was largely squelched in one debate between N.B. Hardeman and Boswell). You mentioned the driving of cars and the use of computers and the bathroom. I hate to play Devil's Advocate (I harbor no affection for the C of C, I assure you!) but they would probably reply that there is no sin in these things so long as you do not do them in the worship of the church. They would say that driving a car is fine but it is not if you do so as an act of worship. They would agree with you 100% that mechanical instruments were fully used and approved of Jehovah in the Old Testament. David, in particular. However, they would rebut this by stating that Christians are under the New Covenent, not the Old and the references to instruments in the Old, numbering in the hundreds, are conspicuously absent from the New Testament. They would say that to justify instruments by an appeal to the Old Covenent likewise justifies animal sacrifices and the myriad of other things which were quite appropriate under "The Law". Then they would hit you with Gal.5:4. I think that most of the responses to your inquiry have confused the issue thinking that members of the church of Christ believe that music itself is a sin. This is false. Members of the Church of Christ listen to, and enjoy, all manner of Secular music and many play instruments themselves. The prohibition lies in the worship of the church. Another related issue is the hermeneutical approach to the silence of Scripture. Instruments are not mentioned in the New Testament with regard to the worship of the Church here on Earth. How are we to regard silence? Some regard it as permissive while the Churches of Christ regard it as prohibitive unless anything not mentioned can be established by necessary inference, approved apostolic example, or direct statement. I'm sorry if this has been too long and banal but hopefully it helped to some small degree toward answering your question. Trust me, though, this has been brief! LOL

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04-20-2003, 04:42 PM	#21
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	I can't find the verses right now, but thre are verses exhorting people to make music in praise of god. Most fundementalist I know of really need bi-weekly praise music to recharge emotionally.

04-20-2003, 11:20 PM	#22
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Ipetrich, you CANNOT get clean without soap or detergent. A little basic chemistry here: Soap and detergents have a pH of 7 (neutral) to 10 or 12 (highly alkaline/basic). Grease and dirt tend to be slightly acid. That's why baking soda or washing soda increase the effectiveness of detergents in your washing machine, raising the pH. Primitive soaps are made from ashes and lye. Soap and detergents have surfactants in them. Surfactants break the surface tension of globs of oil. Ever seen a sink full of greasy water and then dropped a bit of liquid soap on an oil glob? The glob immediately starts shooting bits out from itself and dissolves rapidly. That's what soap does, it disperses the grease by breaking the surface tension, so it is evenly distributed thru the water and can be rinsed away. Modern detergents are much better than old fashioned soap at getting you and your clothes clean. Soap also provides a mechanical cleaning function. WHen you take a cloth and scrub your skin, you are performing mechanical abrasion of the dead skin cells, exposing new skin cells, and killing most of the surface germs that normally live on the skin and in the pores. The bacteria come back in a few hours. Bacteria are what makes sweat smell. Sterile sweat does not smell. The bacteria in the pores interact with it and break it down. (I'm glad that biology degree I got is useful in some tiny degree...) Second point about smelly Pilgrims: I found the quote about the Natives from Lies My Teacher Told Me, Chapter 3, The Truth About the First Thanksgiving, Page 79. The author spends a lot of time talking about the virtual wipingout of native americans due to plagues such as smallpox and measles, and continuous wars from the English attacking them. "The scarcity of disease in the Americas was also partly attributable to the basic hygiene practiced by the region's inhabitants. Residents of northern Europe and England rarely bathed, believing it unhealthy and rarely removed all of their clothing at one time, believing it immodes. The Pilgrims smelled bad to the Indians. Squanto 'tried, without success, to teach them to bathe,' according to Feenie Ziner, his biographer. " footnote #19 to this paragraph states "It wasn't only the pilgrims: Queen Isabella boasted that she took only two baths in her life, at birth and before her marriage, according to Jay Stuller, "Cleanliness," Smithsonian 21 (February 1991): 126-35. as well as the boosk quoted: Feenie Zinmer, Squanto, (Hamden Conn.: Linnet Books, 1988), 141. See also Jennings, The Invasion of America, 48-52; Robert Loeb, Jr., Meet the Real Pilgrims (Garden City NY: Doubleday, 1979)23, 87; and Warren Lowes, Indian Giver (Penticton, British Columbia: Theytus, 1986). === Fundies need the biweekly praise service to recharge emotionally to recover from the you-are-a-worthless-piece-of-shit doctrine spoken from the pulpit by male authority figures. :banghead:

04-21-2003, 05:05 AM	#23
Talulah Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Beautiful Colorado Posts: 682	The Instrumental music prohibition that I think you are referring to is only in church, and doesn't extend to outside worship. [Church of Christ] doctrine states that the bible only says to "sing and make melody in your hearts" and sing "hymns, psalms, and spiritual songs" (no mention of instruments). Singing is considered one of the 5 points of worship in the church of Christ. (sing, pray, teach, communion, etc...i know there is another one but I forgot.) And yes, instruments are mentioned and supported by God in the Old Testament, but that is just FURTHER proof that if God had wanted instruments being used in the church he would have said so. Silence is prohibitive, is a tenet of that doctrine, in most cases. Except in matters of 'expediancy.' Now, I was raised being allowed to listen to pretty much what I wanted outside of church. Well, what I wanted as long as my parents didn't hear it, because they didn't come in and listen to what I had the radio tuned to. Intrestingly enough, I noticed when I was growing up that a lot of my friends listened to 'Christian rock exclusively.' I wasn't encouraged to listen to Christian music, and wouldn't have been allowed too anyway, as it was instrumental. So I listened to secular music while my Baptist friends filled their ears with Michael W. Smith and friends. I could have listened to accapella tapes of hymns, but obviously, it wasn't as fun. The reason I wasn't challenged on my musical tastes was because I listened to the same music my parents did until I went to college: country. I wasn't at college but a few months before I started listened to other things and buying cds of my currently enduring favorites (angry radical women music). My mother decided it was her prodject after that to make me change my tastes (which consisted of telling me how 'bad' the people I listened to were and how I was filling my mind with 'filth') THEN, they started hounding me about how much money it must have cost to buy all those 'evil' cds. My mother was looking up everything she could find on Tori Amos and the Indigo Girls on the internet to have ammo. Never give up, never surrender! Maybe I should write an article called 'Christian parents, give up when your daughters listen to Tori Amos'

04-21-2003, 07:27 AM	#26
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	It's a great marvel how many implacable atheists were raised fundie, legalistic Christians, subjected to useless external cleansing by parents and leaders not unlike the Pharisee's in their thinking. The latter (and often the former) would never understand what Paul meant when he said, "the strength of sin is the law." Rad

04-22-2003, 12:50 PM	#29
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Yeah the Church of Christ is a bunch of idiots. I went to a girl's wedding some years ago in a Church of Christ with no music. Really dumb.

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