Aquila ka Hecate

Hello Tercel,

Just on my way through.

Yes, the 'O Avis' was a joke, a play on both our names refering to birds.

You seem to be a male hawk, while I am a gender-non-specific eagle.


Pot/kettle/black:agreed. I'll try not to indulge in this.

Philosoft

<strong> Then why did you write this:<strong> if an atheist is simply saying in effect, "I currently hold a belief, subject to change if conditions x, y and z are satisfied, that the matter and energy in the universe is all that exists."

Please demonstrate how it takes any faith to hold the above position.

Seb_Maya

originally posted by philosoft:
But what does prayer have to do with science? Do theistic medical researchers pray that God will help them find the cure for cancer? Surely some have done this over the years. So where's the breakthrough? God doesn't think enough of the "help me cure cancer" prayers? He'd rather help out the occasional homosexual who "converts" or motivate Christian missionaries?
-----------------------------------------

I believe:
"It starts with the internal effect and that, hopefully, will have an impact on the outside world."
Read these Philosoft, obviously they are not conclusive proof, however I'm sure you will find the results interesting. (copy/paste into browser)

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1627000/1627662.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1627000/1627662.stm</a>

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_485000/485268.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_485000/485268.stm</a>

(taken from the articles above)
Dr Harold Koenig, associate professor of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center, said: "Some of the greatest scientific achievements have come from those who step outside of the box and I believe that is what this study does.

Seb_Maya

Another article which may be of interest.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_778000/778564.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_778000/778564.stm</a>

Seb_Maya

Sorry, don't mean to flood you guys with articles! this is the last one! This one is definately worth a look.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_516000/516350.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_516000/516350.stm</a>

Philosoft

Honestly, Seb, I hope you don't think this is new ground around here. These studies have been discussed at length. Long story short, the methodologies of the physical illness studies are simply atrocious. There's no control on how much prayer the intercessory groups are receiving. And the mental health studies are unsurprising. There's no telling what mental results one can acheive when one is convinced of the efficacy of a particular action.

Tercel

Aquila ka Hecate,

<strong>Yes, the 'O Avis' was a joke, a play on both our names refering to birds.

You seem to be a male hawk, while I am a gender-non-specific eagle. </strong>

Congratulations! <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />
All previous attempts at interpreting the meaning of my name have told me it's a make of car.

Tercel

Philosoft,
If the atheist holds a position not sufficiently justified by logic, but because of feeling then they have made a leap of faith. Whether or not they would change their position if sufficient evidence was demonstrated is irrelevant.

It cannot be shown that the universe is all there is and a positive belief that it is so is unjustified IMO.

B. H. Manners

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tercel:
[QB]It's always seemed to me to take a lot of faith for the atheist to declare the universe is all there is. It seems like a man on a small island in the middle of the ocean proclaiming that since he can't see any other land, his own island is all there is.

Hello Tercel,

Good point. However, I think a better point would be two people are on that island. Both were raised to believe that the island is all there is. One (the equivalent of a theist) just accepts this and does not investigate further. The other one tries to think up ways to prove whether or not his island is all the land there is. It may take several years, but maybe a tree limb belonging to a palm species not found on his island washes up one day. This leads the second gentleman to formulate a theory, that the limb belongs to a unknow tree living on land far away from where he is living. The first man declares the new found limb a deception of Satan sent to deceive the other man. The other man, undaunted by superstition, tries to find a way to test his theory about the limb to see if he is correct. Eventually, he invents a way to prove as fact his theory by inventing a telescope which he then points across the sea and finds not only an island but a huge continent ready to be explored.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: BH ]</p>

HRG

If not a positive belief, how about a plausible working assumption, to be held until sufficient evidence to the contrary has been found or proposed ?

Regards,
HRG.