Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 03-11-2003, 03:46 PM

Sheesh, I'm startin' to sound like a theist!

Fiach · 03-11-2003, 04:27 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wyz_sub10
No, people believe murder is wrong because, at the base level, it does not promote a sustainable society.

I agree so far.

And at the conscious level, because they understand the nature of loss and importance of survival. It's called 'empathy'.

Wrong. Empathy is the ability to sense or feel another person's feelings or emotions. And the psychological inhibiton against murder is not on a conscious level "the nature of loss and importance of survival." When faced with a conflict that could lead to homicide, one does not diddle over nature of loss and group survival. One decides based on the simpler fact that he/she feels that it is wrong to take the life of another individual, from 3 million years of biobehavioural selection in our neurogenetics. When ones emotions get to high or his inhibition is too weak he breaks his neurogenetic brain hardwired prohibition on murder, and he kills.

Animals in organized societies do not kill each other at random. Can you think of a reason for this, or is this the image of god at work too?

You haven't seen any Jane Goodall telly specials, have you, nor read her books. Chimps quite frequently fight and kill group members for unclear reasons. Sometimes one will kill a baby chimp. Male lions will sometime kill their own cubs and occasionally one of the females. Hyenas are fairly organised with a matriarchial society headed by an alpha female. In Africa where I once worked in the Ruanda War, we had a hyena pack near our camp, and had to be wary and armed at all times. One day they lined up 30 metres away and the Alpha female, suddenly attacked a younger female, killing her.

I'll bet you can come up with a better reason.

Since your premise is wrong, I will only say that the inhibiton against murder is a genetically determine brain behaviour in all social animals. It occasionally fails, like all systems have failures. But it was selected out by trial and error in social systems, and the genes selected for fronto-temporal circuits mediating "intuitive behaviour" are hard-wired in our brains. In some people this system is highly developed and effective, in others (criminals, psychopaths) it is weakly connected, or overcome by hyperconnectivity in the limbic system (rage or passion killing). I again state that excepting "premeditated" killing, most murder is not decided on a fully conscious level.

Fiach

Hawkingfan · 03-12-2003, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas
No. Not all all. God could have just said 'ok...all you guys are off the hook' and simply left it at that.

But that is what I'm saying.

Quote:

In truth, God forgave mankind of all its sins once and for all. Christ is the testament of this forgiveness...often referred to as the new covenant.[/B]

But why did someone have to be sacrificed?

Quote:

I am well versed in the ritualistic law the Hebrews kept. However, we aren't talking about Old Testament Hebrew ritualistic law. We are talking about Christ...the new covenant God made with man...in which all one need do to be forgiven is accept God's forgiveness.[/B]

Ever hear the term "blood of the lamb"? It's refering to how Jesus is the "ultimate sacrifice" for our sins and is the reason why we do not sacrifice animals to god any longer (as the Hebrews did). This is part of the new covenant you are talking about. My point is this--why did anyone at any time have to sacrifice anything to god in order to be forgiven? Why does god need someone or something to shed blood for others?

I was a member of the Church of Christ for over 20 years. My father is an elder in the church and occasional preacher. I attended Northland Christian School in Houston, TX for 6 years. I know exactly what I'm talking about. You are not being honest with me about what is taught in Christian churches.

Torben · 03-12-2003, 08:02 AM

SOMMS,

If god is absolutely good, why then can he change the rules of behaviour with the coming of JC? How can the acts of the ancient jews be good (in their time) when the same acts now would not be? How does the changing of the rules during the game be absolutely good?

Would you accept it if a very holy man came to you and said "You know what, God told me to smite you because you're bad"?

Don't you find it problematic, that god apparently always leaves the dirty work to his followers? If the eradication of the amorites was good, how about the eradication of Native South Americans by Pizarro or of the Australian Aboriginals? Could the eradication of a people be good today?

Regards,
Torben

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 03-12-2003, 08:57 AM

Mageth and Hawkingfan,

Since we are all having the same conversation...I thought I consilidate my posts and save some time. If this doesn't work for either of you please let me know.

Ok...first I have to say this, Mageth

Quote:

posted by mageth

Abel pleased god when he offered a "blood" sacrifice. Cain pissed god off when he offered a salad.

This was quite funny...I laughed out loud.

Second...Hawkingfan, I can't help but notice that both you and Mageth come from the great republic of Texas. I did as well (mom was Southern Baptist). I think this sheds some light into the misunderstanding...I'll explain why later.

Alright...now that the preliminaries are out of the way, I'll begin:

Mageth and Hawkingfan...have either of you actually ever killed something?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Hawkingfan · 03-12-2003, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas
Mageth and Hawkingfan...have either of you actually ever killed something?

Fine, I'll bite. Yes.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 03-12-2003, 09:19 AM

Hawk,

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
Fine, I'll bite. Yes.

Tell me about it.

SOMMS

Mageth · 03-12-2003, 09:25 AM

I'll add my "yes" to HawkingFan's, but I see no need to describe any particular event. Suffice it to say that I've killed more than one animal, but never a human.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 03-12-2003, 09:38 AM

Mageth,

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
I'll add my "yes" to HawkingFan's, but I see no need to describe any particular event. Suffice it to say that I've killed more than one animal, but never a human.

Well that's good (never killing a human).

I would also ask you to tell me about the experience (if you don't want to talk about a particular event I guess thats fine). What you were doing? Why did you do it?. What feelings did you have about it?

SOMMS

Hawkingfan · 03-12-2003, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas
Tell me about it.

roaches, rodents, certain spiders. Please get to the point.

03-11-2003, 04:27 PM	#92
Fiach Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 602	I disagree [QUOTE]Originally posted by Wyz_sub10 No, people believe murder is wrong because, at the base level, it does not promote a sustainable society. I agree so far. And at the conscious level, because they understand the nature of loss and importance of survival. It's called 'empathy'. Wrong. Empathy is the ability to sense or feel another person's feelings or emotions. And the psychological inhibiton against murder is not on a conscious level "the nature of loss and importance of survival." When faced with a conflict that could lead to homicide, one does not diddle over nature of loss and group survival. One decides based on the simpler fact that he/she feels that it is wrong to take the life of another individual, from 3 million years of biobehavioural selection in our neurogenetics. When ones emotions get to high or his inhibition is too weak he breaks his neurogenetic brain hardwired prohibition on murder, and he kills. Animals in organized societies do not kill each other at random. Can you think of a reason for this, or is this the image of god at work too? You haven't seen any Jane Goodall telly specials, have you, nor read her books. Chimps quite frequently fight and kill group members for unclear reasons. Sometimes one will kill a baby chimp. Male lions will sometime kill their own cubs and occasionally one of the females. Hyenas are fairly organised with a matriarchial society headed by an alpha female. In Africa where I once worked in the Ruanda War, we had a hyena pack near our camp, and had to be wary and armed at all times. One day they lined up 30 metres away and the Alpha female, suddenly attacked a younger female, killing her. I'll bet you can come up with a better reason. Since your premise is wrong, I will only say that the inhibiton against murder is a genetically determine brain behaviour in all social animals. It occasionally fails, like all systems have failures. But it was selected out by trial and error in social systems, and the genes selected for fronto-temporal circuits mediating "intuitive behaviour" are hard-wired in our brains. In some people this system is highly developed and effective, in others (criminals, psychopaths) it is weakly connected, or overcome by hyperconnectivity in the limbic system (rage or passion killing). I again state that excepting "premeditated" killing, most murder is not decided on a fully conscious level. Fiach

03-12-2003, 08:02 AM	#94
Torben Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 22	I don't get it! SOMMS, If god is absolutely good, why then can he change the rules of behaviour with the coming of JC? How can the acts of the ancient jews be good (in their time) when the same acts now would not be? How does the changing of the rules during the game be absolutely good? Would you accept it if a very holy man came to you and said "You know what, God told me to smite you because you're bad"? Don't you find it problematic, that god apparently always leaves the dirty work to his followers? If the eradication of the amorites was good, how about the eradication of Native South Americans by Pizarro or of the Australian Aboriginals? Could the eradication of a people be good today? Regards, Torben

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03-11-2003, 03:46 PM	#91
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Sheesh, I'm startin' to sound like a theist!

03-12-2003, 09:25 AM	#98
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'll add my "yes" to HawkingFan's, but I see no need to describe any particular event. Suffice it to say that I've killed more than one animal, but never a human.

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