IrishGuy

Christians hear all the time about repressing other belief systems, and with good reason. There have been many thousands of Christian acts of repression and cruelty to other belief systems in the past, and many continue today. Do most Christians act this way? Of course not. Thinking so would be a grevious act of stereotyping, not to mention just being just silly.

What many people don't think about, however, are athiest acts of repression. There have been many thousands of athiest acts of repression and cruelty to other belief systems in the past, and many continue today. The Soviet Union, a communist govenment whose founder said that "religion is to be abhored," killed 61 million of its own people (to the best of my knowledge, thats more than all the holy wars combined ever killed), and existed as a paranoid state that could not allow other belief systems besides athiesm. Christianity, or any other religion, was not allowed. Only state enforced atheism could be "practiced". Today in North Korea, the same thing continues. Do most atheists act this way? Of course not. Thinking so would be a grevious act of stereotyping, not to mention just being just silly.

One might say that Communism isn't athiesm, so the parallel doesn't work. I can say the same thing about the Crusades, the Inquisitions, or the Salem Witch trials. The Crusades , the Inquisitions, and the Salem Witch trials were not Christian. (I hope you all realize that not everything that a Christian does is Christian. They make mistakes on or exploit their belief system like everyone else). Granted The Crusades would not have been possible had Christianity not been created, but the athiests Karl Marx and Lenin would not have established Communism were it not for athiesm.

My point is that athiests (such as Communists) have performed and continute to perform acts of cruelty and oppression against other beliefs systems, just as Christians (such as Crusaders or Inquisitors) have performed and continute to perform acts of cruelty and oppression against other beliefs systems. The analogy between the Crusades and Communism is weak, I know. But can you deny that athiests are just as repressive and cruel as Christians?

So next time atheists make the sweeping generalization that Christians force others to accept their "filthy doctrines," just remember that the Christians can throw that statement right back.

Jabu Khan

I agree with you that forcing atheism on people is immoral. My problems here right now in this society are a little different then that and I don't have to acept them just because the other is or was going on somewhere else.

Viti

The difference is that the Crusades and Inquisition etc. occured to further Christianity and in the name of Christianity and in the name of God and the further the Church's goals.

Communist acts were not done in the name of no god, or to further disbelief in deities, but in the name of Communism and to further the goals of brutal dictators. They repressed all religions because they wanted to be the ultimate authority...and that's just as wrong, I agree. And the ideas of Communism are not based on disbelief in deities...you're wrong there. The Principles of Communism not one mention of atheism or stance on the existence of deities.

But comparing death counts is really useless. Why do Christians want to repress others NOW?

IrishGuy

Again, just because they were declared in the name of God by Christians, does not mean that they were Christian. The Crusades were waged to further the goals of brutal nobles and clergy, supposedly for Christianity, just as Communism was used to further the goals of brutal dictators, supposedly for the people. Thats probably a weak analogy, but my point was that atheists have repressed others just as Christianity has.

Communism isn't based on dibelief in dieties, but it is nonetheless a central tenet of the system. Lenin said that "Thousands of natural catastrophes and epidemics are preferable to the slightest notion of God."

Viti

How do you define Christian? They believed in the God Yahweh and his son Jesus Christ as their savior...that's a Christian

Um, the Crusades were to fought specifically to eliminate Islam...what other goals were there?

Your comparison fails if you know the first thing about the Crusades or Communism

Individual atheists, yes, but not in the name of atheism.

That's what Lenin said, it is not a principle of Communism according to the Communist Manifesto.

And again I ask you, what is the point of your comparisons?

IrishGuy

The Crusades eliminated everything in its path, Christians, Jews, and Muslims. The Sixth Crusade (I think) sacked the Christian city of Constantinople. This particular Crusade was orchestrated by Italian nobles who wanted their trade competion destroyed. Eliminating Muslims was definitely a factor, of course, but other huge factors were the opening of trade routes to the wealthy middle east, riches and other looted goods, glory in battle, and good ol' land.

IrishGuy

The point, as I said earlier, was to show that atheists (such as Communists)have repressed belief systems just as Christians (such as Crusaders) have.

rebelnerd

Again, just because they were declared in the name of no-god by atheists, does not mean that they were atheist.

That statement doesn't make sense, unless this is an abstract philosophical argument.


It's a false analogy. How does 'for the people' = atheism?


Chrisitanity is based on a belief in dieties and it is a central tenet of the system, big difference IMO.

infinity

okay, perhaps so. however, there are a few other important distinctions.

christian/theist repression: they oppressed you for believing ANYTHING other then what they believed.

atheist/non theist repression: they oppressed you for believing in christianity, which oppressed others for believing ANYTHING other then what they believed for the last 2000 years.

the fact is, repression of religon is reactionary and defensive.
other acts of violence, perpetuated by either christianity or atheism, that were done solely for territorial or conquering reasons, don't really count because that sort of thing has been going on with or without religon for a long, long time.

why did stalin kill off the christians? why did he make christianity a crime?
because there was a history of christianity being violent and dominating, of it being a power threat, of it being a danger to his vision of communist russia.
reactionary. it happened only because christianity existed, and existed in a particular way.

while there is obviously plenty of cases in the last few hundred years of atheists being agressive towards theists for the purpose of repressing theism, i think you'd be very hard pressed to find any examples of atheists being agressive towards other atheists (or, for example, agnostics) for not believing in god as much as they do.
however, religon has plenty of that sort of thing going on. has for thousands of years. still does today. likely will for the duration of its cultural existence.

IrishGuy

Communism does not simply oppose and Christianity, it crushes all religion. Only athiesm could be "practiced" in the USSR.

As for Communist cruelty being in response to Christian cruelty, I could just as easily say that Christian cruelty was in response to Roman pagan and Jewish (early in the religion's history) cruelty.