Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Answerer · 06-05-2002, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:


My OP was targeted less at the titles we choose for ourselves, and more at the underlying conclusions: "Gods do not exist" vs. "I lack a belief in gods." We like to toss around the second as a means to dodge attacks of "where's your proof that there's no god." My point is that, really, my conclusion is the former "Gods do not exist." The question that then follows is, do I carry a heavier argumentative burden for holding this position, or is the "weak atheist" defense an unnecessary one?

Jamie

Oh I see, so thats your aim. Well, many christians and muslims I met often dodge my questions and answered them in relative unreasonable ways like 'Because God say so' or 'Because Satan created science to mislead humans'. So, as I had said, I felt that it is pointless to argue with such persons who don't even listen to what I had to say and don't have other beliefs other than those in the Bible. Nevertheless, there are also some christians who compromise science with bible, for such people, I also found hard in srguing with people as they believed all the established 'facts' in science or historical and yet, they believed the verses in the bible to be symbolic and God, himself, is some kind of hyper-dimensional or 'beyond human understanding of reality' entity, for this kind of theists, I found it hard to argue with.
So other than these two kinds of theists, I found so far, the other theists(that I met) quite manageable.

Philosoft · 06-05-2002, 08:04 AM

Well spake, Arrowman.

Jobar · 06-05-2002, 08:30 AM

I myself see no problem with a strong atheist using any argument used by a weak atheist. A strong atheist simply makes a belief statement (based, of course, on abundant but not absolute evidence) that no gods exist. Although it seems to me more difficult to support this belief than to hold that no evidence exists for any god, it most certainly provides a very firm foundation if one wishes to build upon it.

I myself have stated that I am 99.999...% sure no god exists- but my only certainty is that I am human and don't know all there is to know. Therefore I do not claim absolute certainty about any statement in English.

Arrowman · 06-05-2002, 04:30 PM

(Thanks, Philosoft)

Perhaps one can state a more robust strong atheist position by saying "I believe that there are no gods / supernatural entities which have a direct interest in, or influence on, life on this planet" - as opposed to "there are no gods anywhere in the universe, never have been, never will be".

The latter statement is certainly sustainable, and as Jobar says you can't be more than 99.99999% sure about any statement in English, but the former statement is imho supported by enough evidence to make it 99.99999999999999999% sustainable.

(And if there are supernatural entities somewhere which have no influence on us - who cares?)

Answerer · 06-05-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar:


I myself have stated that I am 99.999...% sure no god exists- but my only certainty is that I am human and don't know all there is to know. Therefore I do not claim absolute certainty about any statement in English.

Same with me, somehow, I don't have the courage or fact to claim that God is 100% false.

Gemma Therese · 06-05-2002, 05:27 PM

Well,

Thank God for that 0.00000000000000001% !

Gemma Therese

Answerer · 06-05-2002, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
Well,

Thank God for that 0.00000000000000001% !

Gemma Therese

Why thanks a non-existent entity, there is no way that he could heard your thanks.

tronvillain · 06-05-2002, 06:20 PM

Answerer:

Quote:

Same with me, somehow, I don't have the courage or fact to claim that God is 100% false.

I don't think it is a sign of lack of courage to not say something irrational.

Megatron · 06-05-2002, 06:22 PM

Well, I'm a strong atheist and I honestly believe that 99% of religious belief is composed of indoctrination and/or cognitive dissonance. There's my % figure for the day.

I would also say that I'm almost completely sure that there is NO Jewish/Christian/Muslim/whatever-organized-religion-you-wanna-throw-in-here God... maybe a proverbial "0.000000000000001% of doubt" lingers around somewhere, but that tiny figure mostly deals with possibilities I cannot comprehend. Those sort of possibilities are beyond me and I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out whether or not they exist (it wouldn't matter anyway).

Also, honestly, if there is a God (of any sort), I don't really care. If a God exists, He/She/It/Whatever is obviously not involved in what we do here, and is therefore none of my damn business. I'm here to live my life for X years and die, not waste those years worrying myself to death about something completely beyond my control.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zero Angel ]

AlphaFraktaL · 06-05-2002, 07:50 PM

Weak or strong atheism?
I dont get it... what's the point?

If you're saying that there is no proof then good for you. That's why we have this forum and are amusing ourselves by writing redundant arguments.

If you want to know a reason why I prefer atheism:
I think the appeal of atheism is a non-distortion of the senses. It allows for the freedom to experience what one chooses and the ability to form limitless new ideas. Always in religion I have experienced a sense of fear of the unknown, the stiffiling of curiousity. Don't get me wrong and believe that I am saying there aren't good morals and traditions: there are many ideas that I have found coincide with positive actions and experiences.

As far as proof, so what? Atheism is a religion like any other, but with an individualistic set of values. The appeal (and strength?), if any, should be in the values that are self-extracted.

06-05-2002, 06:22 PM	#39
Megatron Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: New York Posts: 5,441	Well, I'm a strong atheist and I honestly believe that 99% of religious belief is composed of indoctrination and/or cognitive dissonance. There's my % figure for the day. I would also say that I'm almost completely sure that there is NO Jewish/Christian/Muslim/whatever-organized-religion-you-wanna-throw-in-here God... maybe a proverbial "0.000000000000001% of doubt" lingers around somewhere, but that tiny figure mostly deals with possibilities I cannot comprehend. Those sort of possibilities are beyond me and I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out whether or not they exist (it wouldn't matter anyway). Also, honestly, if there is a God (of any sort), I don't really care. If a God exists, He/She/It/Whatever is obviously not involved in what we do here, and is therefore none of my damn business. I'm here to live my life for X years and die, not waste those years worrying myself to death about something completely beyond my control. [ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Zero Angel ]</p>

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06-05-2002, 08:04 AM	#32
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	Well spake, Arrowman.

06-05-2002, 08:30 AM	#33
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I myself see no problem with a strong atheist using any argument used by a weak atheist. A strong atheist simply makes a belief statement (based, of course, on abundant but not absolute evidence) that no gods exist. Although it seems to me more difficult to support this belief than to hold that no evidence exists for any god, it most certainly provides a very firm foundation if one wishes to build upon it. I myself have stated that I am 99.999...% sure no god exists- but my only certainty is that I am human and don't know all there is to know. Therefore I do not claim absolute certainty about any statement in English.

06-05-2002, 04:30 PM	#34
Arrowman Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 1,358	(Thanks, Philosoft) Perhaps one can state a more robust strong atheist position by saying "I believe that there are no gods / supernatural entities which have a direct interest in, or influence on, life on this planet" - as opposed to "there are no gods anywhere in the universe, never have been, never will be". The latter statement is certainly sustainable, and as Jobar says you can't be more than 99.99999% sure about any statement in English, but the former statement is imho supported by enough evidence to make it 99.99999999999999999% sustainable. (And if there are supernatural entities somewhere which have no influence on us - who cares?)

06-05-2002, 05:27 PM	#36
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	Well, Thank God for that 0.00000000000000001% ! Gemma Therese

06-05-2002, 07:50 PM	#40
AlphaFraktaL New Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 4	Weak or strong atheism? I dont get it... what's the point? If you're saying that there is no proof then good for you. That's why we have this forum and are amusing ourselves by writing redundant arguments. If you want to know a reason why I prefer atheism: I think the appeal of atheism is a non-distortion of the senses. It allows for the freedom to experience what one chooses and the ability to form limitless new ideas. Always in religion I have experienced a sense of fear of the unknown, the stiffiling of curiousity. Don't get me wrong and believe that I am saying there aren't good morals and traditions: there are many ideas that I have found coincide with positive actions and experiences. As far as proof, so what? Atheism is a religion like any other, but with an individualistic set of values. The appeal (and strength?), if any, should be in the values that are self-extracted.

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