Vorkosigan

When I lived in Kenya that was exactly how it was. The young girls would "have sex" -- there's no such thing as rape in kenya, since women cannot say no -- and end up pregnant. The next thing is the abortion, using either insecticides or anti-malarials as abortifacients. The final result was inevitably the girl would show up at the hospital, where it was illegal to treat her. And then she would be left to die, or maybe live, if she was lucky.

Of course, you know what is going to happen. After abortion is criminalized, they are going to go after birth control. And at the same time, relax the punishment for rape. See ya'll in the kitchen, ladies!

Vorkosigan

DMB

Abortion was first legalised in England and Wales in 1967, a few years before Roe vs Wade. I am old enough to remember vividly what life was like for unmarried women who became pregnant before then and for their unfortunate children. It was a permanent black mark against the woman and, if she kept the child, it suffered social persecution as well. The pregnant women were often sent away to ghastly "homes" where everything possible was done to punish them for their "sin". They were put under enormous pressure to give the baby up for adoption.

Once the 1967 Abortion Act was passed, there was a gradual change of heart. "Pro-life" organisations were set up to try to persuade women to maintain their pregnancies, and they offered much more sympathy than had ever been available before. Why couldn't this sympathy have been offered before the Act?

How about Romania under the communist dictator, Ceascescu? The regime was extremely pro-natalist, so that not only abortions but also contraception were illegal. Women were fiercely interrogated if they failed to become pregnant and were severely punished for abortions. The result was a high birthrate and the abandonment of huge numbers of infants to be brought up in horrible conditions in orphanages.

I am sure that the main, but undeclared, reason for conservative opposition to reproductive freedom is that it is the most important step in the emancipation of women. In Western society women now enjoy an unprecedented equality and freedom, but it had to be fought for every step of the way. Look around at other cultures and see how little free women are in many of them.

babelfish

I really do wonder what they envision happening if Roe v. Wade is overturned.

You can't turn back the clock. There has been a radical shift in the status of women in the past 30 years. There have been too many advances in the field of medicine in the past 30 years.

So even as we talk about how it used to before abortion was legalized, we have to realize that it wouldn't be the same if they illegalized it now.

Vesica

Babelfish -

You do have a point in your last post...If abortion was RE-criminalized it would not be quite the same as it was before it was legalized.

I would hope that re-criminalizing abortion (as horrible as that would be) would not bring with it the idea that women are breeders or the idea that unborn children are male possessions, as was practiced in the past.

I think the greater focus has to be directed towards those place that these ideas still persist, ideas like the myth of rape and the maternal blame for miscarriages etc.

Synaesthesia

It would also be legally permissible to kill an abortionist who is in the process of attempting to murder an innocent human being.

simian

Have you paid attention to those looking to re-criminalize abortion? As far as I can see, they do view women, fetuses, and children as male posessions to pretty much do with as they wish. Or, in their words, men and women have different "gifts" - women have thier wombs and the "motherly" attributes it gives - men have the women - the father before marriage, the husband after.

But, no, I don't think illegal abortions would be as they were in the past. RU-486 and other chemical (early-term) abortificants would be somewhat available on a blackmarket here.

I think we would see assisting or having an abortion getting labeled as full-fledged murder, though, complete with the death penalty.

Simian

Vesica

I have had no exposure to that breed to Pro-Lifers.....Do you have any links??

I would be intrested in exploring those kinds of arguments against abortion.

My comments were based on the more moderate (?) supporters of the pro-life agenda that would like to see abortion legal acknowledged as murder and therefore criminalized....

Talulah

**I am spoilering this post as it contains graphic details**

I have a rather uncomfortable story about a 'clinic' that sort of relates to this topic. (Well maybe not, but it just reminded me and I want to point out the attitudes that are still out there about un-wed sex)

I, being responsible and starting a new relationship went for free STD test at a clinic. Bear in mind that this was in Louisiana, I am not sure if it would be like this in another state. I was in college, of legal age (I was 20, iirc)

I was scared to death but determined that I needed to have this done. I hadn't had unprotected sex but maybe twice, but still, I wanted to be sure before sleeping with anyone else.

I was escorted into this little room, things seemed normal. She asked me all sorts of questions about my sexual experiances, which I was expecting, including asking about past abuse, which I answered truthfully. She gave me a spiel about therapy and ignored me when I said I was already in therapy dealing with it (I guess she figured I was promiscuous (or I wouldn't be there) and I was 'acting out').

The first hint I got was this little paper she made me sign, after she talked to me. I had to sign a piece of paper stating that I would remain abstinent until I married!! I almost refused to sign it but I figured, what the hell, I am here to do this thing, I will just get it over with and get out of here.

So I get undressed and on the table. Bear in mind I had never had any sort of exam like this before. She get that little thing ready (i don't remember what they call it), comes and stands at the end of the table, and says 'Remember you don't have to have sex to live' in a really nasty voice at the same time she shoved that thing in me, hard.

Needless to say, I was hurt, both emotionally and physically from it. I just think that those sort of programs and attitudes are NOT helpful. It was obvious that someone had taught her to make those 'bad' people coming in for STD tests feel ashamed.

When i had to go back to get the results, after she told me everything was ok i had to sign the paper AGAIN, if i recall correctly.

**end spoiler**

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Talulah ]</p>

Ab_Normal

Talulah - I'm agog - that's an absolutely horrible way to get your first pelvic exam -

I'm sure I'll edit this soon to add something actually constructive and on topic, but right now is all I can come up with!

Jagged

I second Ab Normal. Almost sounds like some sort of "aversion therapy" to get you to associate sex with pain. Makes me want to bash heads together.