Godless Dave

I don't think most people are. But many are indicting the church to its lackluster response last week.

IvanK

I surely don't envy the Church these days what with every news hound in the country running down priest abuse stories that run up front whether or not they're more than allegations, regardless of how old they are and whether or not anything was ever done about them. It'll be the death of a thousand cuts for a lot of parishes and put a lot of church leaders in tight spots. A lot of people in and out of the Catholic Church are simply not going to be satisfied with the available answers.

But what exactly was "lackluster" about the Church's response last week? What were people looking for? "We'll excommunicate the SOBs and then cut off their balls and feed them to pigs, in Jesus's name?" Catholics are pretty comfortable with the idea of forgiveness, you know. The Pope calls all the Cardinals in the States plus a couple top bishops in to read them the riot act, something that's never happened in nearly 2000 years, and that's "lackluster?" They pledge to investigate and publicize the problems, give the laity a voice in solving them, and that's "lackluster?"

brighid

Ivan,

When I say “those priests” I mean exactly those priests who have molested children. I didn’t indict all priests because that would be completely irrational. I know many fine men and women in the ministry that would never harm a child. I am saying “The Church” because of it’s policies and it knowingly and willingly put childreb in harms way through it’s policies of secrecy and time and time again placing offending priests in different parishes for the sake of saving face. Those men responsible for creating, implementing and supporting policies that any reasonable person would deem wrong are the very men we are talking about. I mean, come on now, can any reasonable person believe that a man who has molested many children will stop doing it if he is placed in another location? I have also read that often the Church ignored independent evaluations of the priest’s future likeliness to harm again. Therefore, the Church isn’t make a very good case for itself and it’s “lack” of culpability.

We shouldn’t accuse all priests of wrongdoing and any reasonable person would not and is not doing such. But people are sick of hearing the blame game and the Churches attempts at deflecting responsibility onto society, the children and everyone else except where it should be with – the Church and the priests who harmed children and the priests who kept the secrets that allowed the cycle of abuse to be perpetuated and did so knowing the harm it caused children! Even 20 and 30 years ago they knew it was wrong or there would be no need to place these men in treatment facilities and institute policies to deal with the offending priests. The Church knew it was wrong, the Church knew about all the priests molesting young boys and girls, the Church consciously instituted and implemented policies to protect the priests and with little to no regard for the victims and future children that would be victimized. The Church buried it’s head in the sand and until enormous public pressure was placed on them has anything even been done or discussed amongst those affected by it. Churches are being instructed to squash lay dissenter who are organizing to attempt to affect change in their parishes. The Vatican says in no so uncertain terms that it’s really not that bad – it’s a sin, it’s bad BUT only if it happens to lots of children! Let’s not go and indict every priest, but we sure as the hell should indict the Church policies that have been willing accomplices in the destruction of the physical and mental well being of it’s children and the other children who have been harmed by those who offended others after being molested themselves. It is NOT time to turn a blind eye and minimalize the pervasiveness of this problem within religious communities, and pedophilia and child molestation are not exclusive sins of the Catholic Church. The Church is responsible for its employees and those responsible should be punished, leaving the innocent men and women unscathed. And to borrow a phrase from my Christian brethren – For Christ’s sake MORE has to be done and the Church has a moral duty to stop being such arrogant assholes, diverting blame to every one else and start addressing the reality so children can be protected and the pedophiles can be removed and some modicum of justice can be served.

Sorry, but I am not waiting for the next life to see legitimately guilty priests punished or for the religious organizations to wake up and start doing something. Ah – the beauties of blind faith and complete obedience to Godly authority.


B

PopeInTheWoods

Honestly, I don't care if the criminal priests are defrocked or excommunicated or not. If the church wants to be forgiving, fine. That's purely a church issue, and it's not the state's business to interfere in "spiritual" matters. But if other clergy members have knowledge of those priests' criminal activities, they are required to report it to the appropriate CIVIL authorities! If they fail to do so, they should be charged as accessories or accomplices.

By concentrating on "zero tolerance", the Pope and Cardinals are dealing with the wrong problem. IMHO they're deliberately distracting the dialogue away from their requirement to report criminal activity to the police.

Andy

IvanK

Not so, in many states at least, where the confidentiality of the confessional holds an equal place in law with attorney-client privilege. We agree I suspect that in cases where a priest's superior was aware of this kind of activity and had an obligation to report it they should be held culpable.

PopeInTheWoods

Good point IvanK, I didn't speak precisely enough. I'm not advocating breaching "confessional privilege", I'm talking about a monsignor or bishop or whatever taking complaints from parishoners and such. That leads to the question of why the victims and their families run to the church instead of to the police to make their reports....

Andy

Godless Dave

First, I would have liked to hear that the welfare of the victims is more important than the reputation of the institution. The use of the word "notorious" reinforced the idea that sexual abuse by priests isn't the problem, people finding out is the problem.

I would have liked to hear a commitment to report allegations of criminal activity to the police, and to cooperate with criminal investigations. Putting investigations in the hands of the police would not only help them prosecute guilty priests but also help protect innocent priests from false allegations.

Last but definitely not least, I wanted to see Cardinal Law come back from Rome without a job.

sullster

I don't know if those of you from outside of the Boston area know these new tidbits about Cardinal Outlaw or not, but here they are.
Law actually had a statement delivered by his attorney in a case involving an abuse victim named Ford, where he blames the then six year old and his parents for partial responsiblity for his molestation by one of the priests. Wow.

Cardinal Law disparaged organizations created by church members to increase dialogue with the clergy. What timing.

Card outLaw made a plea for more donations to his fund raising regime. Shows where his priorities are during this crisis. $$$$$$$$$

The guy is outrageous. Is it him or his organization?


There is no witch-hunt going on here, by the way. The crimes committed are real, the lives harmed are real, the accused priests are not innocent, and a very powerful organization is covering up and obscuring criminal activities. Cardinal Law is a criminal, not a victim of a witch hunt.

IvanK

Let's review, shall we?

No one is saying priests who sexually abused minors, or their superiors who knew of their harmful activities and did nothing effective to end them, are victims of a witch hunt. They all need to come clean, the law needs to deal with what it can deal with and the Church needs to deal with the rest.

One point the article in the OP raises, though, is that if sex is OK then why are priests being condemned for having sex? I think we've established that sex between authority figures and minors is not OK, but not why. I've asked for some ideas toward a secular alternative or a refutation of the ideas that sex between an authority figure and a minor is a sin, that all are sinners and all want and need forgiveness from sin.

Another is that, even granting that some priests and their superiors need to be dealt with harshly, the fact that some people betrayed an institution they should have been serving is no indictment of the institution itself or the people who serve it. So I'd have to reject language like:

in favor of: the Catholic Church is in a grave crisis but it recognizes it has a problem and is trying to deal with it. Those within the Church who can't or won't deal appropriately with the crisis are going to have to change or leave. The crisis is probably not going to remain confined to the U.S. for long, and its resolution is going to be painful. The Church and the people who should serve it are going to make mistakes along the way and they will suffer for them.

But tarring every priest, bishop or Cardinal, or the Church itself, with the same brush for the awful conduct of a few or dredging up 20- and 30-year-old abuses or accusations of abuses in order to splash them across the front of every local print, radio and TV news report is more sensationalism than a serious attempt to solve the problem.

[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ]</p>

sullster

IvanK, I have to respectfully disagree with your point about the institution. The priests did not betray the institution. They obviously felt no fear of any retribution from higher ranks of the hierarchy. Thus it was clear that the church let it be known that child molestation was going to be overlooked. The institution tacitly allowed such behaviour and thus its acceptance became part of the organization.

There are institutions which destroy you if you betray them. The ones who betray are dealt with. The institution in question here, the RCC, protected the priests and moved them around. I stand with my idictment of the institution as corrupt and venal on this issue of priest molestations.