diana

Being a fine Christian lady, I'm sure she'll forgive you ;-)

Indeed. Old habits die hard.

livius? There are three of you in that brain?

Not exactly. I hate to confuse matters, but livius and I seem to be attached at the corpus collosum, and I just popped over to Talulah's brain for a visit, but I don't live there. Does that help?

As an aside, I know many people do find strength and peace in prayer. Saying, "O Lord, help me have strength" is simply how they give themselves permission to be strong.

How about saying it this way: we won't try to be strong until a crisis forces it out of us, and then we realize what is in us, or until we believe enough that we might be strong, to take the risk of trying it - even though we might fail.

That takes faith - and it's not necessarily a faith in what is external to us; it might be faith in ourselves - as it were. If it's ok to use that term here . However, for Christians perhaps it is faith in God which enables them to have faith in themselves. It's like the kid who says "Weeeelllll, ok...if you come with me I guess I could try it..."

Same result as someone who can self-talk themself into trying it - alone, based on their own strength.

Interesting. I would, of course, argue that it isn't the same result--it is the same thing.

I of course base that upon the lack of evidence of God, et cetera.

So no more dropping batteries on yourself, ok?

I think I've learned my lesson, Helen. At any rate...if I'm going to drop batteries on myself, I should humble myself thusly in a closet, so my Father who sees in private will reward me openly, yes?

Realistically, it probably depends who you ask and whether they have a basically healthy or disfunctional way of approaching life and relationships.

I concur. And this applies to Jesus and the Apostle Paul how?

So if we try to help others before we've gained some understanding of our own weaknesses, tendencies to manipulate, over-control, to seek attention at any cost - whatever it might be - until then we will probably just make everyone miserable if we try to help them when our own internal world is in total disarray.

So you're saying that yes, most prayer is egocentric in nature, but that's okay?

I know plenty of people who are apparently incapable of introspection of any kind. Their constantly praying for patience and understanding doesn't actually give them those things, but it eventually convinces them they have those traits because they've been asking God for them for so long, they figure they must be patient and understanding by now.

"Where he has us." This is a hurdle I have trouble with, as well. Are we where God wants us from moment to moment? You suggest the answer is yes. Isn't it disrespectful and presumptuous to ask for Him to change anything?

I guess it might depend whether one thinks of God as a generous friend or a harsh authority figure. Friends are delighted to do what they can for friends. They don't mind being asked. They have good boundaries and can 'just say no', if need be.

Yes, I do see God as a harsh authority figure (because actions speak louder than words), but for the purposes of this discussion, we can simply leave out the "harsh" bit, as it is irrelevant here.

If you see God as a "friend," this suggests to me an equality of some sort, but that is not the relationship at all, if the bible is any guide. He undoubtedly is an authority figure--an authority figure with a divine plan, that was in place before he made the worlds. I still don't see how you get around the presumptiousness of asking him to change anything for little ol' you, as this would necessarily imply that you think his creation or plan is less than perfect.

But again, if one thinks relationally - if someone does something for you, you still want to thank them, don't you, even if they know you are grateful? You still enjoy saying it to them and you enjoy that you've made each other happy, as it were.

True.

p.s. Give my regards to Talulah and remind her not to worry too much about God's will

Will do.

Typing Like Mad With Seven Fingers,

d

HelenM

Originally posted by diana:

Helen: livius? There are three of you in that brain?

diana: Not exactly. I hate to confuse matters, but livius and I seem to be attached at the corpus collosum, and I just popped over to Talulah's brain for a visit, but I don't live there. Does that help?

Uh, yeah, sure...

*note to self: *

diana:As an aside, I know many people do find strength and peace in prayer. Saying, "O Lord, help me have strength" is simply how they give themselves permission to be strong.

Helen:How about saying it this way: we won't try to be strong until a crisis forces it out of us, and then we realize what is in us, or until we believe enough that we might be strong, to take the risk of trying it - even though we might fail.

That takes faith - and it's not necessarily a faith in what is external to us; it might be faith in ourselves - as it were. If it's ok to use that term here . However, for Christians perhaps it is faith in God which enables them to have faith in themselves. It's like the kid who says "Weeeelllll, ok...if you come with me I guess I could try it..."

Same result as someone who can self-talk themself into trying it - alone, based on their own strength.

diana: Interesting. I would, of course, argue that it isn't the same result--it is the same thing.

Well, you would really, wouldn't you, being an atheist?

And I wouldn't really, would I, being a theist?

diana: I of course base that upon the lack of evidence of God, et cetera.

Of course

Helen: So no more dropping batteries on yourself, ok?

diana: I think I've learned my lesson, Helen. At any rate...if I'm going to drop batteries on myself, I should humble myself thusly in a closet, so my Father who sees in private will reward me openly, yes?

Ah...excellent application of Scripture, diana!

Seriously, when I studied the sermon on the mount I came to the conclusion that a valid application of the "wash your face while fasting" was that we aren't to be perpetual whiners; that we aren't to make a big deal of everything we're going through.

However, I'm very much in favor of each person deciding whether that means don't say "ow!" to your friends when something happens - or not...as the LORD leads...

We need that sort of freedom rather than having other people tell us when we can say "ow!"

Helen:Realistically, it probably depends who you ask and whether they have a basically healthy or disfunctional way of approaching life and relationships.

diana:I concur. And this applies to Jesus and the Apostle Paul how? ;-)

Obviously I have nothing to say about Jesus being disfunctional...when it comes to Paul I think I will discreetly choose not to comment.

Helen: So if we try to help others before we've gained some understanding of our own weaknesses, tendencies to manipulate, over-control, to seek attention at any cost - whatever it might be - until then we will probably just make everyone miserable if we try to help them when our own internal world is in total disarray.

diana: So you're saying that yes, most prayer is egocentric in nature, but that's okay?

Um...I wasn't really talking about prayer at that point. But, to answer your question, I would say that many of the things many Christians do are probably more ego-centric than they'd like to admit to. So that would include prayer, yes.

Is it ok? I guess that's up to God to answer, not me!

diana: I know plenty of people who are apparently incapable of introspection of any kind. Their constantly praying for patience and understanding doesn't actually give them those things, but it eventually convinces them they have those traits because they've been asking God for them for so long, they figure they must be patient and understanding by now.

*shudder*

Fwiw, I think that patience and understanding are most effectively and permanently imparted through the shock of going through the kind of reversals and crises that show us what life is really like for all those people we used to be impatient with, and not understand...

Although I'm not saying that everyone who has suffered is patient and understanding, or that no-one who hasn't, is.

diana:"Where he has us." This is a hurdle I have trouble with, as well. Are we where God wants us from moment to moment? You suggest the answer is yes. Isn't it disrespectful and presumptuous to ask for Him to change anything?

Helen:I guess it might depend whether one thinks of God as a generous friend or a harsh authority figure. Friends are delighted to do what they can for friends. They don't mind being asked. They have good boundaries and can 'just say no', if need be.

diana: Yes, I do see God as a harsh authority figure (because actions speak louder than words), but for the purposes of this discussion, we can simply leave out the "harsh" bit, as it is irrelevant here.

Fair enough.

If you see God as a "friend," this suggests to me an equality of some sort, but that is not the relationship at all, if the bible is any guide. He undoubtedly is an authority figure--an authority figure with a divine plan, that was in place before he made the worlds. I still don't see how you get around the presumptiousness of asking him to change anything for little ol' you, as this would necessarily imply that you think his creation or plan is less than perfect.

I don't know that it's possible unless you posit some kind of relationship like a [decent] parent has with their kids. One in which the parent doesn't mind being asked, in the least. Actually maybe that's not realistic by the time you get to the millionth question of the day...

And besides, we are adults so that doesn't exactly hold without being rather more patronizing than I'm entirely comfortable with...

So, perhaps I have said nothing substantive in response.

Helen: But again, if one thinks relationally - if someone does something for you, you still want to thank them, don't you, even if they know you are grateful? You still enjoy saying it to them and you enjoy that you've made each other happy, as it were.

diana: True.

I'd say that's how Christians who manage not be non-jerks and have very strong faith, think of their relationship with God.

Helen: p.s. Give my regards to Talulah and remind her not to worry too much about God's will

diana: will do.

Thanks!

Typing Like Mad With Seven Fingers,

d

Oh, that's nothing. I've been mad and typed with ten! :-D

love
Helen

p.s. should I know who livius is?

livius drusus

It doesn't confuse me of course, but I can also see that it makes little to no sense at all. As I'm sure you'll agree, sis.

HelenM

diana

Indeed.

d