Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr S · 08-09-2002, 12:21 PM

Isaiah 45:5-7. Oh there it is. No wonder I couldn't find it in Job. Thanks Jack.

die bene tleilax · 08-10-2002, 10:30 AM

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Clearly not. We obey orders for fear of punishment, among other reasons. Eve had no way of knowing either the innate "badness" of choosing to eat the fruit of the tree or of any consequences that might come from eating the fruit.

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3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

the bible verses here show that she knew she was not to do it, because that is her first reaction to the serpent. so the only basic 'revealed knowledge' she had was that her creator, the only one besides adam she currently knew, told her not to. she chose to go against that, thus already she had given free will. purely in response to the above where it was mentioned that the snake gave free will by having them eat the fruit. i agree that they did not have the knowledge to make an informed choice. it was a setup, as nothing happens that isn't meant to happen.

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Oh good gravy. Do you have any non-arbitrary non-apologetic justification for this? Is there any translation that doesn't include the word "die"?

i'm sure you are aware of metaphor use... it's throughout literature. just because this is the bible, a supposedly sacred text, doesn't mean that everything must be taken literally, to serve argumentative purposes. it may or may not be meant to be metaphoric, but in any case they did apparently die as a result of their actions, even if it was nearly 1000 years later. god didn't say "you will die instantly upon ingestion of the fruit".

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They found out what evil meant in a hurry and hide in the bushes. But until they ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil they didn't have the knowledge of good and evil.

yes... the consequence of the CHOICE, which they were capable of making, whether they knew all consequences or not. they knew this basic information : listen to god, listen to serpent. that is enough to make a choice. yes, god must have known they would choose that. it started the game which we all play in now! though i do not believe that solitary belief in the bible or jesus is necessary for 'salvation'. as if all other people would suffer eternally... eh that is a mistaken, selfish view.

do you have information on where i can read about that older (pre-jewish) version of the Garden of Eden story?

Dr S · 08-10-2002, 03:13 PM

(DBT) the bible verses here show that she knew she was not to do it, because that is her first reaction to the serpent. so the only basic 'revealed knowledge' she had was that her creator, the only one besides adam she currently knew, told her not to. she chose to go against that, thus already she had given free will.
(S) Clearly she did not. I don't know how I can put this any more clearly. She could not distinguish between right and wrong. She is not being punished for her action as all it is, is the eating of one lousy piece of fruit.
She is being punished for her moral decision-choosing evil over good.
While your argument would hold if this were about freedom of action it isn't. This is about freedom of will. If you can't tell the difference between right and wrong you cannot be said to have free will no matter how free your actions are.

(DBT) i agree that they did not have the knowledge to make an informed choice. it was a setup, as nothing happens that isn't meant to happen.
(S) Then again it comes down to god being immoral and not man

(DBT) i'm sure you are aware of metaphor use... it's throughout literature.
(S) The story we have here contains a magic pile of dust, a magic rib bone, a magic piece of fruit, a talking snake, an invisible superman and later a winged lion with the head of a man and a sword made out of fire (a monster called a cherub).

I don't think we can call it metaphor, more like a fairytale. But the metaphor in it is the fall of man. No historic fall, no need for an historic Christ. Or are we talking about Jesus as metaphor too?

(DBT) god didn't say "you will die instantly upon ingestion of the fruit".
(S) No, he said Gen:2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He said the day you eat it you would die. You shall surely die, no ifs, ands or buts.
In a thousand years there are 365,000 days. That's off by quite a bit. If I borrowed your lawn mower and told you I'd have it back to you this very day, and then returned it on August 10, 3002 we could safely say that I had lied to you.

(DBT) the consequence of the CHOICE, which they were capable of making�
(S) Please explain just how you yourself would make a moral choice if you didn't know right from wrong?

(DBT) they knew this basic information: listen to god, listen to serpent. that is enough to make a choice.
(S) We'll try this on you.
Should you listen to Jack or should you listen to Jill? Pick the wrong one and you will die. Now which will it be?

How do you choose? You have no information. I'll give you a hint Jack is xctsef while Jill is ndgrrev.
But then you don't know what those words could possibly mean because they deal with a concept that I've never let you in on. And yet I intend to kill you if you get it wrong. So where is your "free will" without this information. How does this differ from flipping a coin?

(DBT) do you have information on where i can read about that older (pre-jewish) version of the Garden of Eden story?
(S) Sure. The easiest copy to get would be in Joseph Campbell's Occidental Mythology: The Masks of God. It's a book of comparative western mythology

lcb · 08-10-2002, 04:13 PM

this was really an excellent question Xeren. I am going to think about it some more. I myself have often wondered why God didnt just start with heaven first, and skip all the suffering inbetween. Think i might even run this one by wittengenstein's net.

die bene tleilax · 08-11-2002, 06:33 PM

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While your argument would hold if this were about freedom of action it isn't. This is about freedom of will.

you are correct... my mind missed the connotations.

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(DBT) i agree that they did not have the knowledge to make an informed choice. it was a setup, as nothing happens that isn't meant to happen.
(S) Then again it comes down to god being immoral and not man

well this could cause a lot of debate, in relation to morality origins etc etc. but it is useless, because here we are now, serving a purpose, and opposing sides can always be found. there are some that say it has happened this way so that the entities who freely choose good and fight the battle against evil become strong in spirit and will, which is how the 'creator' wants them...

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I don't think we can call it metaphor, more like a fairytale. But the metaphor in it is the fall of man. No historic fall, no need for an historic Christ. Or are we talking about Jesus as metaphor too?

the possible metaphor i was referring to would be 'dying' meaning no longer being innocent, instead transformed into what we know as the conflicting wills good + evil, physical + metaphysical focus. and if you look at it that way, as soon as they realized good/evil they hid, thus it seems to me that the metaphor is not too far fetched. it would not require jesus to also be a metaphor.

Dr S · 08-12-2002, 08:27 AM

(DBT)the possible metaphor i was referring to would be 'dying' meaning no longer being innocent�
(S) It has been my experience that most American "believers" are very nice people. Reading the bible, which was written by a primitive people in a harsh environment they often find that they themselves are nicer, "better people" if you will, than god or Jesus were. When they realize this these "believers" usually try to rework what god and Jesus have said and done to improve their characters.
Trying to pass off this death threat as a metaphor speaks very well of you as a person. But Genesis makes it abundantly clear that it isn't one. After the threat is made it is discussed a second time between Eve and Snake. Were it a metaphor they would have discussed it as such and they did not. The author of this story used their dialogue to reinforce the already clear message.

(DBT)�if you look at it that way, as soon as they realized good/evil they hid, thus it seems to me that the metaphor is not too far fetched.
(S) Think again about the world the authors of this fictional piece lived in. It was a world where Humanism was still thousands of years in the future. Where logic, which we consider the corner stone of sanity itself, was an alien concept. Where middle eastern Potentates every word, every whim, was law. If they said chop off your hand it was chopped--no appeals to civil or human rights, no trial, no logic.
It is unfair of me to impose 21st century values on this primitive mythology. The god in these stories is one of these Potentates sitting on his pillows-a being appropriate to its time and place. I should no more demand that he use logic and fairness than I should expect the same from King Arthur.
Unfortunately there are many who are not content to view this particular creation myth as they view the hundreds of other creation myths, as a quaint relic from our primitive past. So it becomes necessary, if this myth is to be imposed upon the 21st century, to subject it to 21 century standards.

By today's values the god in this story is not only living in a magical make-believe universe that has no relation to (what we now know is) the real universe, but he doesn't even meet the moral standards of a normal 21st century human being.

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08-09-2002, 12:21 PM	#31
Dr S Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 106	Isaiah 45:5-7. Oh there it is. No wonder I couldn't find it in Job. Thanks Jack.

08-10-2002, 03:13 PM	#33
Dr S Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 106	(DBT) the bible verses here show that she knew she was not to do it, because that is her first reaction to the serpent. so the only basic 'revealed knowledge' she had was that her creator, the only one besides adam she currently knew, told her not to. she chose to go against that, thus already she had given free will. (S) Clearly she did not. I don't know how I can put this any more clearly. She could not distinguish between right and wrong. She is not being punished for her action as all it is, is the eating of one lousy piece of fruit. She is being punished for her moral decision-choosing evil over good. While your argument would hold if this were about freedom of action it isn't. This is about freedom of will. If you can't tell the difference between right and wrong you cannot be said to have free will no matter how free your actions are. (DBT) i agree that they did not have the knowledge to make an informed choice. it was a setup, as nothing happens that isn't meant to happen. (S) Then again it comes down to god being immoral and not man (DBT) i'm sure you are aware of metaphor use... it's throughout literature. (S) The story we have here contains a magic pile of dust, a magic rib bone, a magic piece of fruit, a talking snake, an invisible superman and later a winged lion with the head of a man and a sword made out of fire (a monster called a cherub). I don't think we can call it metaphor, more like a fairytale. But the metaphor in it is the fall of man. No historic fall, no need for an historic Christ. Or are we talking about Jesus as metaphor too? (DBT) god didn't say "you will die instantly upon ingestion of the fruit". (S) No, he said Gen:2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. He said the day you eat it you would die. You shall surely die, no ifs, ands or buts. In a thousand years there are 365,000 days. That's off by quite a bit. If I borrowed your lawn mower and told you I'd have it back to you this very day, and then returned it on August 10, 3002 we could safely say that I had lied to you. (DBT) the consequence of the CHOICE, which they were capable of making� (S) Please explain just how you yourself would make a moral choice if you didn't know right from wrong? (DBT) they knew this basic information: listen to god, listen to serpent. that is enough to make a choice. (S) We'll try this on you. Should you listen to Jack or should you listen to Jill? Pick the wrong one and you will die. Now which will it be? How do you choose? You have no information. I'll give you a hint Jack is xctsef while Jill is ndgrrev. But then you don't know what those words could possibly mean because they deal with a concept that I've never let you in on. And yet I intend to kill you if you get it wrong. So where is your "free will" without this information. How does this differ from flipping a coin? (DBT) do you have information on where i can read about that older (pre-jewish) version of the Garden of Eden story? (S) Sure. The easiest copy to get would be in Joseph Campbell's Occidental Mythology: The Masks of God. It's a book of comparative western mythology

08-10-2002, 04:13 PM	#34
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	this was really an excellent question Xeren. I am going to think about it some more. I myself have often wondered why God didnt just start with heaven first, and skip all the suffering inbetween. Think i might even run this one by wittengenstein's net.

08-12-2002, 08:27 AM	#36
Dr S Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 106	(DBT)the possible metaphor i was referring to would be 'dying' meaning no longer being innocent� (S) It has been my experience that most American "believers" are very nice people. Reading the bible, which was written by a primitive people in a harsh environment they often find that they themselves are nicer, "better people" if you will, than god or Jesus were. When they realize this these "believers" usually try to rework what god and Jesus have said and done to improve their characters. Trying to pass off this death threat as a metaphor speaks very well of you as a person. But Genesis makes it abundantly clear that it isn't one. After the threat is made it is discussed a second time between Eve and Snake. Were it a metaphor they would have discussed it as such and they did not. The author of this story used their dialogue to reinforce the already clear message. (DBT)�if you look at it that way, as soon as they realized good/evil they hid, thus it seems to me that the metaphor is not too far fetched. (S) Think again about the world the authors of this fictional piece lived in. It was a world where Humanism was still thousands of years in the future. Where logic, which we consider the corner stone of sanity itself, was an alien concept. Where middle eastern Potentates every word, every whim, was law. If they said chop off your hand it was chopped--no appeals to civil or human rights, no trial, no logic. It is unfair of me to impose 21st century values on this primitive mythology. The god in these stories is one of these Potentates sitting on his pillows-a being appropriate to its time and place. I should no more demand that he use logic and fairness than I should expect the same from King Arthur. Unfortunately there are many who are not content to view this particular creation myth as they view the hundreds of other creation myths, as a quaint relic from our primitive past. So it becomes necessary, if this myth is to be imposed upon the 21st century, to subject it to 21 century standards. By today's values the god in this story is not only living in a magical make-believe universe that has no relation to (what we now know is) the real universe, but he doesn't even meet the moral standards of a normal 21st century human being.

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