Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 10-29-2002, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
[QB]Layman: the problem with Shanks and Lemaire from the beginning was that they were obviously stretching whatever meaning could be derived from this artifact, even if it had not been tampered with.

And when did you read the article and make this determination, Toto?

Besides, other scholars have gone even further, including that statisticion from Israel who says that Lemaire understates his case.

Quote:

You yourself are overstating the case when you say that "other specialists have verified that the inscription is authentic." If by authentic, you mean that it refers to James the Just, the brother of Jesus, no one has verified that it is authentic. The best anyone can do is find a lack of evidence for it being a modern forgery.

Since I have time and again said that I'm reserving judgment on the statistical evidence I guess you are once again just dropping little jabs. By "authentic" I mean what it obviously sounds like: the ossuary and the inscription are authentic. They were not faked. They really come from the first century, etc.

Ted Hoffman · 10-30-2002, 01:53 AM

Layman et al,
Apikorus is also using a photograph. Its really pathetic to choose to beleive his assesments over Altmans - why do you do that?
Do you think Apikorus is better qualified than Altman?

Like I said, what we need now is a debate between experts. I wrote an email to Altman and she hasnt responded - before we get expert opinions from sources other than BAR, I suggest we wait.

And if Bede beleives that Eusebius did indeed write a letter to Jesus and that he got a response from Jesus, then indeed Eusebius never lied. According to Bede.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]

10-30-2002, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Bede - are you saying that Eusebius can't even be trusted when he says that James burial place was still there in his own time? Was that just a baseless rumor he was passing on?

Go to Ephesus and you can see the tomb of John the Evangelist, in Damascus there is the tomb of John the Baptist. I am sure there was a place in Jerusalem in Eusebius's time venerated as James's tomb and was probably seen by Eusebius. This does not mean that this really was the tomb, any more than today we can point to the real resting place of the two Johns.

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Vorkosigan · 10-30-2002, 04:10 AM

Layman, I apologize unreservedly for my hypocritical and insulting behavior on this thread. I am very sorry.

Vorkosigan

Geoff Hudson · 10-30-2002, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron:
Apparently it's leaving Israel.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/27/jesus.inscription.ap/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/10/27/jesus.inscription.ap/index.html</a>

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel said Sunday it has granted a four-month export license for an ancient burial box that may be the oldest archaeological link to Jesus.

Of interest is this section:

Dahari said Sunday that the collector, who does not want to be named, told him he bought the burial box about 30 years ago from a Jerusalem antiquities dealer.

Last week, Biblical Archaeology Review editor Hershel Shanks told a news conference that the collector bought the box about 15 years ago, and that it had been unearthed south of the Mount of Olives.

Dahari had no immediate explanation for the different dates on when the collector bought the ossuary.

In any case, 15 years is plenty of time to make the appropriate additions. The collector prays to God every night that no-one will detect the fraud from which he hopes to make a killing.

Geoff

Geoff Hudson · 10-30-2002, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Robert Eisenman has an op ed piece in the LA Times today with an interesting take (the title does not do the piece justice):

<a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-eisenman29oct29.story" target="_blank">A Discovery That's Just Too Perfect</a>

He argues that James was not known as James the brother of Jesus until much later in history.

Quote:

.....Hegesippus, a Palestinian native who lived perhaps 50 years after the events in question, tells us that James was buried where he was stoned beneath the pinnacle of the Temple in Jerusalem. Eusebius in the 4th century and Jerome in the 5th say the burial site with its marker was still there in their times.....

I am interested in the words "beneath the pinnacle of the temple". We are talking about a location that is down from mount Zion rather than up on the mount of Olives. Could this be the location of "the field of blood" - where the blood of sacrifices finished up when it was washed from the temple? Could it also be the burial place for "strangers" such as Rechabites - the field that Jewish literature says was bought by the priests for a toilet? Perhaps this was the burial place of John the Prophet, not James who I would argue was executed in Rome. In any case, I would imagine that the relatives of Rechabites could not afford the luxury of an ossuary, and would prefer to be buried in the land.

Geoff

leonarde · 10-30-2002, 05:07 AM

Posted by Geoff Hudson:

Quote:

In any case, 15 years is plenty of time to make the appropriate additions. The collector prays to God every night that no-one will detect the fraud from which he hopes to make a killing.

Any evidence of either the fraud or the prayer?

Cheers!

Jayhawker Soule · 10-30-2002, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Intensity:
Layman et al,
Apikorus is also using a photograph. Its really pathetic to choose to beleive his assesments over Altmans - why do you do that?

You confuse belief with appreciation and respect, attitudes clearly foreign to you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Intensity:
Do you think Apikorus is better qualified than Altman?

I do not know. What are the relative qualifications held by Lemaire, Fitzmyer, McCarter, Altman, Apikorus, and you?

Quote:

Originally posted by Intensity:
Like I said, ... before we get expert opinions from sources other than BAR, I suggest we wait.

Actually, a week ago you said, in part:

Quote:

It's a fraud. Take it from Me. ... Its crappy. Case closed.

Presumably your qualifications warrant such a definitive conclusion. I trust that you've made it available to Dr. Altman et. al.

Radorth · 10-30-2002, 06:53 AM

From Psyco Economist's link

Quote:

"... They would have never written 'brother of Jesus' in the first century," Robert Eisenman, professor of biblical archaeology at California State University, Long Beach, and author of "James, Brother of Jesus," told Discovery News.

Vorkosigan:

Quote:

In addition to the frequency of James, there is another issue, that is: the box dates from 20 BCE to at least 70 CE and a little later. Thus, there are at least three generations of "james" who could wind up on a box over this time. The odds are not at all bad that we would find a box with those names on it.

Rad

leonarde · 10-30-2002, 07:02 AM

Quick question for Apikorus,
I know the inscription is in Aramaic and
in a script variant of that language. But is the
writing system itself that of Aramaic or is it
a form of Classic(al)Hebrew/Square Hebrew? Thanks
in advance!

Cheers!

10-30-2002, 01:53 AM	#62
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Layman et al, Apikorus is also using a photograph. Its really pathetic to choose to beleive his assesments over Altmans - why do you do that? Do you think Apikorus is better qualified than Altman? Like I said, what we need now is a debate between experts. I wrote an email to Altman and she hasnt responded - before we get expert opinions from sources other than BAR, I suggest we wait. And if Bede beleives that Eusebius did indeed write a letter to Jesus and that he got a response from Jesus, then indeed Eusebius never lied. According to Bede. [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Intensity ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-30-2002, 04:10 AM	#64
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Layman, I apologize unreservedly for my hypocritical and insulting behavior on this thread. I am very sorry. Vorkosigan

10-30-2002, 07:02 AM	#70
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Quick question for Apikorus, I know the inscription is in Aramaic and in a script variant of that language. But is the writing system itself that of Aramaic or is it a form of Classic(al)Hebrew/Square Hebrew? Thanks in advance! Cheers!

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.