Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cipher Girl · 06-02-2003, 12:21 PM

Hi emotional

Just curious, have you ever been close to dying? Because from you posts it sounds that you have not. I've been close to death before, and if anything, its given me a sense that each moment of life is precious and to be savored. It doesn't matter what the future brings, only this moment is really important. It's not that I don't plan for the future, I do, but I don't constantly live my life waiting for things to happen for me. I set them into motion myself.

I had a conversation with my doctor once. Given some of the problems that I've experienced in the past, he said that I was a nice change from some of his other patients. They constantly whine and moan about the things they can't change in thier lives. I said that I change the things I have control over, and try to accept or work around the things I have no control over.

You say that your life is out of your control. How is that? Are you under 18? If not, your life is anything you want it to be.

emotional · 06-02-2003, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cipher Girl
Just curious, have you ever been close to dying? Because from you posts it sounds that you have not.

No, I haven't.

Quote:

I've been close to death before, and if anything, its given me a sense that each moment of life is precious and to be savored.

Of course it is. This life isn't to be wasted. It's just that I have an obsessive fear of death, if death is what materialists say it is: non-existence. I just go reeling with fear when I think about having my consciousness switched off. It's unthinkable, it's like a computer trying to divide by zero.

Quote:

You say that your life is out of your control. How is that? Are you under 18? If not, your life is anything you want it to be.

I'm currently in an interim period between leaving my former work (as PC technician) and starting studies (as Arabic translator and teacher). It's a waiting period, and during waiting periods I have nothing substantial to do and I go crazy. I expect I'll resume control over my life come October, when my studies start. I'm 24 right now.

schu · 06-03-2003, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
My belief in life after death isn't entirely blind. It is based also on things which I interpret as evidence for life after death, such as NDEs and mediumship. Now before you all go the whole hog on me, as in the Science and Scepticism forums, I know NDEs are not conclusive evidence for life after death, I know the arguments for a naturalistic explanation of NDEs, I know all that stuff. But because I want to believe in life after death, I ignore those arguments and interpret NDEs as evidence for life after death.

If there were really no evidence at all (such as NDEs), then I wouldn't be able to believe, no matter how hard I tried. It'd be 100% pure self-delusion. I'm glad there are at my disposal some things I can interpret evidence for life after death. The trouble with evidence is that it can be refuted (as with NDEs). That's where faith comes in.

Faith and evidence are a feedback loop. Ever since the news of the SARS outbreak (which I had at first thought was as lethal as AIDS or ebola) I've immersed myself in Spiritualist literature to strengthen the evidential basis for my faith in life after death.

I don't want no miracles or any o' that Biblical stuff. All I want is an assurance of life after death. [/B]

You seem to accept as evidence things that I would blow off as assertions. I'm not saying that the people who make the assertions are not being honest, only that they may be mistaken about it. My experience has been that many of the people that make these assertions about NDE have had some kind of experience. After they have made the assertion they feel they have to make up facts to fit what they feel they have experienced. This is from personal experience with two people I know well who claimed they had NDE.

One of these people also claimed he could do water witching. I set up a test for him that he claimed he could do involving finding waterlines around my house. When I proved to him he could not find the water lines he made all kinds of excuses about why he couldn't find them. This person really felt he could find the water lines and also felt he had a NDE. My skeptical self still thinks that neither was true.

You might find it helpful to take a closer look at the assertions people make to determined if it is truly evidence or testimonies that could be based simply on their feelings, their interpretation of the experience.

emotional · 06-03-2003, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by schu
You might find it helpful to take a closer look at the assertions people make to determined if it is truly evidence or testimonies that could be based simply on their feelings, their interpretation of the experience.

No. For me, NDEs are proof of life after death, and I want it to stay that way. I'm not interested in any "closer look".

Radcliffe Emerson · 06-03-2003, 01:51 PM

I have no problem with just ceasing to exist when I die.
I prefer science and reason to myth and fantasy.
The only myths I enjoy are Lord of the Rings-style myths, or
science fiction.

KitKit · 06-03-2003, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radcliffe Emerson

The only myths I enjoy are Lord of the Rings-style myths, or
science fiction.

ooh ooh me too! if i could choose which myths would become real i would definitely choose lord of the rings, not the xtian god myth. hobbits & wizards & kings & queens are WAY more fun than all that stuff in the bible!

Radcliffe Emerson · 06-03-2003, 02:36 PM

You got that right!
I've always preferred those types of fantasy worlds to the mythological religous fantasy world.
The sad thing is, the religous fantasy world is every bit as fictionous as LOTR, yet so many people buy it hook, line, and sinker.

echoes · 06-03-2003, 04:34 PM

Ancient people used to look at the sky and see what they thought were gods up in the heavens. Spirits and demons filled the world and constantly intervened in our lives. Virtually all natural phenomena were due to the workings of some supernatural force.

But isn't the truth much better? Isn't the beauty, simplicity, and elegance of a universe governed by natural laws (and nothing more) preferable? In response to the original question, I don't see it as "the cold hard truth vs. a pleasant fiction"; I think that the truth is quite beautiful, and certainly more parsimonious than any religious views.

I've never been religious, but I used to be vaguely agnostic. As I've become more secure in my naturalistic beliefs (and consequently in my atheism as well) I have definitely felt happier. My worldview defines myself (and all people) as nothing special- just animated matter, and that kind of humility goes a long way. I never understood all the arrogance and self importance of religions whose adherents claim to have "souls," or who claim that the creator of the entire universe favors them, and made them in his image.

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06-02-2003, 12:21 PM	#81
Cipher Girl Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 657	Hi emotional Just curious, have you ever been close to dying? Because from you posts it sounds that you have not. I've been close to death before, and if anything, its given me a sense that each moment of life is precious and to be savored. It doesn't matter what the future brings, only this moment is really important. It's not that I don't plan for the future, I do, but I don't constantly live my life waiting for things to happen for me. I set them into motion myself. I had a conversation with my doctor once. Given some of the problems that I've experienced in the past, he said that I was a nice change from some of his other patients. They constantly whine and moan about the things they can't change in thier lives. I said that I change the things I have control over, and try to accept or work around the things I have no control over. You say that your life is out of your control. How is that? Are you under 18? If not, your life is anything you want it to be.

06-03-2003, 01:51 PM	#85
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I have no problem with just ceasing to exist when I die. I prefer science and reason to myth and fantasy. The only myths I enjoy are Lord of the Rings-style myths, or science fiction.

06-03-2003, 02:36 PM	#87
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	You got that right! I've always preferred those types of fantasy worlds to the mythological religous fantasy world. The sad thing is, the religous fantasy world is every bit as fictionous as LOTR, yet so many people buy it hook, line, and sinker.

06-03-2003, 04:34 PM	#88
echoes Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: PUERTO RICO Posts: 750	Ancient people used to look at the sky and see what they thought were gods up in the heavens. Spirits and demons filled the world and constantly intervened in our lives. Virtually all natural phenomena were due to the workings of some supernatural force. But isn't the truth much better? Isn't the beauty, simplicity, and elegance of a universe governed by natural laws (and nothing more) preferable? In response to the original question, I don't see it as "the cold hard truth vs. a pleasant fiction"; I think that the truth is quite beautiful, and certainly more parsimonious than any religious views. I've never been religious, but I used to be vaguely agnostic. As I've become more secure in my naturalistic beliefs (and consequently in my atheism as well) I have definitely felt happier. My worldview defines myself (and all people) as nothing special- just animated matter, and that kind of humility goes a long way. I never understood all the arrogance and self importance of religions whose adherents claim to have "souls," or who claim that the creator of the entire universe favors them, and made them in his image.

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