Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dark Jedi · 10-08-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ought Naught:
Are "sniper rifles" different from regular rifles in some particular way? I ask because the .223 is a relatively common caliber used largely for "varmint hunting" (not to mention in certain assault rifles). It is a relatively fast and flat round that is quite accurate at long ranges. I guess it is these attributes that make it desirable for small game because it allows one to shoot from relatively great distances. I don't know enough about the Maryland sniper to comment specifically, but a well-sighted .223 with a scope would probably turn even a marginally capable marksman into a passable sniper even at some fairly long ranges. From my personal experience, .223s have a fairly loud report, so it would be quite a surprise that nobody heard the shots if the shooter wasn't using some sort of silencer.

That hasn't been my experience with the .223. As a varmint gun, this is fine, but accuracy seems to suffer past about 500 meters. At 1000 meters (The furhtest known range I have fired a devent .223) the margin of error is pretty wide (Remington 25-06, almost identical rifle/round).

A good 7.62mm (30-06) would be accurate to a half mile or more. A well made Enfield .308 the same.

I could be wrong, but long range shooting is one thing I am good at, and well versed in.

Ought Naught · 10-08-2002, 07:20 PM

Dark Jedi,

You're probably right about the .223s limitations at long ranges. I'm by no means an expert with rifles, and so where I was speaking of "long ranges", a more experienced shooter such as yourself would probably have said "medium range". From what I understand of the Maryland whackjob, he was shooting from well within the usable range of the .223. But maybe you might be able to answer my question regarding what the particular attributes of a "sniper rifle" might be? Would the 7.62/30-06 or .308 be more typical of a sniper rifle, or is there some other "ideal" sniper caliber?

David M. Payne · 10-08-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galiel:
abe smith - you are not implying that the sniper is some kind of U.S. gov't operative spreading fear and confusion, I (hope and) assume; merely cautioning that the gov't may take advantage of the situation, should the perpetrator prove to have a middle-eastern link?

In any case, jumping to conspiratorial conclusions one way or another is premature; remember how hasty people were to assume that the Oklahoma City bombing was the work of "Ayrab" terrorists? Until there is evidence to the contrary, one should assume this is a lone wacko or wackos with their own wacky agenda.

Yes, it could be the lone white American gunman, but I don't think so this time. If it is, I'm sure it will be like Tim McVeigh, a nut who had ties to the nazi/right wing religious right, as did his buddy, Terry McNicols(?).(Remember he was avenging the "crime" committed against David Korish and his religious cult in Waco. Yes, Janet Reno bungled it badly, but that is another thread.)

The way they hit and run, is a common guerilla/terrorist tactic, and I know a little about that as an x-marine and a Vietnam vet, with some training in guerilla tactics and marksmanship. The 223 round isn't a good long-range weapon by the way, a couple of hundred yards is it's real reliable range. Which could explain why two people weren�t killed, the shooter was too far away, and couldn�t hit the center mass chest with his shot. We trained with 7.62 MM M-14's in boot camp, a rifle that was deadly out to 500 yards. When I got to Nam, we were issued the M-16, though we were trained with it in ITR (Infantry Training Regiment) at camp Pendleton, before I left. I never liked the M-16, to light a bullet, a small twig would deflect it off course.
As for jumping to conspiratorial conclusions, we aren�t involved in the actual hunt for these murderous thugs, so we can speculate all we want here I think.

Here is another speculation. I believe it is at least two guys based on the way they hit and run. It would be to hard for one guy to stop a car, truck or van, get out and set up his shot and then get back into the vehicle and disappear into the traffic, with no one noticing. But picture this, a van say, with a driver and a shooter hidden in the back, shooting out of the back or side window, or even a small opening in the side or back. As they drive around, they look for targets of opportunity, the shooter tells the driver to stop, he sets up his shot from inside the van, shoots, and then they just drive off with the rest of the traffic. If the shooter is well hidden, the rifle is silenced, and the shot is made from within the van, people around it would have a hard time recognizing what is happening, which would go a long way to explaining who there are no witnesses who have come forth, at least that we know of. This could go on for a long time under this scenario, and the more they kill, the deeper the terror is. That is the goal of terrorism here, by the way, to sow terror, and cause the target country, the US, to degenerate into something resembling a police state in its attempt to stop the terror. This is why I think it is some religious terrorists in action.
I speculate it is the al-Qaida network, (But it could be one of our own, granted) based on their stated goal of spreading terror throughout America until we bow to their demands. Stop supporting the only democracy, Israel (Not a great democracy) in the area and stop exploiting them economically, by buying their oil at inflated prices. The real exploiters are their own gov't who blame us for all the ills that the regimes straight out of the dark ages has sowed with their regressive, repressive, religious policies. It will be interesting to see what or who is behind all this, if we ever find out that is.

David

Kosh · 10-08-2002, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:
 When I got to Nam, we were issued the M-16, though we were trained with it in ITR (Infantry Training Regiment) at camp Pendleton, before I left. I never liked the M-16, to light a bullet, a small
twig would deflect it off course.

IIRC, wasn't the reasoning behind the .223 (and M16) because so many shots were "wasted" (missed targets) that the army decided they'd be better of wasting less raw resources?

Born Free · 10-08-2002, 11:43 PM

On the news this morning I read that a tarot card was found near the scene of the latest shooting that read "dear policmen: I am god". Could be connected, maybe not.

ManM · 10-09-2002, 06:08 AM

Dear policeman, I am God? Well this is obviously the case of an atheist who is acting out of his own self interest. He realizes that there is no real meaning in life besides the gratification of his own desires, and he combines that with the belief that he is ultimately not accountable for his actions. And so he thinks there is nothing wrong at all with killing people. For him it is a fun challenge; a game to be played. He finds that his own power of choosing life or death for his victims is not limited by any God, and so with satisfaction he concludes that he must be God.

Or maybe it is someone who is just sick in the head. Isn't that far more reasonable then placing blame on a certain set of beliefs?

Walter_Mitty · 10-09-2002, 08:12 AM

Yes, what annoys me is the press is sensationalizing this guys shooting skills by calling him a sniper.

Heck, BEFORE basic training I could hit targets with a rifle at 200 yds. Any jackass with time, a box of rounds, and some tin-cans could build enough skill to be accurate up to 100 yds.

A TRUE sniper is downright scary. Marine Sgt. Calos Hathcock was credited with 93 confirmed kills while serving in Vietnam. He also made a confirmed shot that was even mentioned by my Army drill sgt.: one confirmed kill at 2,500 yds with a scope mounted .50 cal. That's almost 1 1/2 miles!

As for this jokers belief's, at present the public is not privvy to enough information for anyone to really make a call on it (IMO). I think it's sufficiant to call him a nut-case and be thankful that it would appear he's not better trained!

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]

Autonemesis · 10-09-2002, 08:56 AM

If he was a trained sniper with a military background, wouldn't he be smart enough to pick up his spent casings?

The tarot card inscription doesn't seem like something one of Allah's faithful would write, even as a taunt to the infidels.

So I think signs are pointing to a messed-up loner with too much time on his hands, and not a militia or terror plot. I think once they catch him, people everywhere can rest easy.

...until the next one decides to come unscrewed.

Kosh · 10-09-2002, 10:57 AM

Once they catch him, they should use him as target practice for one those now kenetic rail gun weapons....

Shake · 10-09-2002, 11:41 AM

I obviously missed this thread when I created <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001238" target="_blank">my own thread</a> on this very issue! In Dogma-esque fashion, god has decided to have some fun, not playing skee-ball this time, but taking out his vengeance on humanity with a high-power rifle, one by one. Or maybe, this is someone who was watching one of those old, "I'm Tiger Woods" ads, and thought, "Well, hell, if they're all Tiger Woods, then I'm god! And think I'll go show these people how pissed off I am!"

10-09-2002, 08:12 AM	#27
Walter_Mitty Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: . Posts: 467	Yes, what annoys me is the press is sensationalizing this guys shooting skills by calling him a sniper. Heck, BEFORE basic training I could hit targets with a rifle at 200 yds. Any jackass with time, a box of rounds, and some tin-cans could build enough skill to be accurate up to 100 yds. A TRUE sniper is downright scary. Marine Sgt. Calos Hathcock was credited with 93 confirmed kills while serving in Vietnam. He also made a confirmed shot that was even mentioned by my Army drill sgt.: one confirmed kill at 2,500 yds with a scope mounted .50 cal. That's almost 1 1/2 miles! As for this jokers belief's, at present the public is not privvy to enough information for anyone to really make a call on it (IMO). I think it's sufficiant to call him a nut-case and be thankful that it would appear he's not better trained! [ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-08-2002, 07:20 PM	#22
Ought Naught Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Winter of My Discontent Posts: 94	Dark Jedi, You're probably right about the .223s limitations at long ranges. I'm by no means an expert with rifles, and so where I was speaking of "long ranges", a more experienced shooter such as yourself would probably have said "medium range". From what I understand of the Maryland whackjob, he was shooting from well within the usable range of the .223. But maybe you might be able to answer my question regarding what the particular attributes of a "sniper rifle" might be? Would the 7.62/30-06 or .308 be more typical of a sniper rifle, or is there some other "ideal" sniper caliber?

10-08-2002, 11:43 PM	#25
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	On the news this morning I read that a tarot card was found near the scene of the latest shooting that read "dear policmen: I am god". Could be connected, maybe not.

10-09-2002, 06:08 AM	#26
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	Dear policeman, I am God? Well this is obviously the case of an atheist who is acting out of his own self interest. He realizes that there is no real meaning in life besides the gratification of his own desires, and he combines that with the belief that he is ultimately not accountable for his actions. And so he thinks there is nothing wrong at all with killing people. For him it is a fun challenge; a game to be played. He finds that his own power of choosing life or death for his victims is not limited by any God, and so with satisfaction he concludes that he must be God. Or maybe it is someone who is just sick in the head. Isn't that far more reasonable then placing blame on a certain set of beliefs?

10-09-2002, 08:56 AM	#28
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	If he was a trained sniper with a military background, wouldn't he be smart enough to pick up his spent casings? The tarot card inscription doesn't seem like something one of Allah's faithful would write, even as a taunt to the infidels. So I think signs are pointing to a messed-up loner with too much time on his hands, and not a militia or terror plot. I think once they catch him, people everywhere can rest easy. ...until the next one decides to come unscrewed.

10-09-2002, 10:57 AM	#29
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Once they catch him, they should use him as target practice for one those now kenetic rail gun weapons....

10-09-2002, 11:41 AM	#30
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	I obviously missed this thread when I created <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=001238" target="_blank">my own thread</a> on this very issue! In Dogma-esque fashion, god has decided to have some fun, not playing skee-ball this time, but taking out his vengeance on humanity with a high-power rifle, one by one. Or maybe, this is someone who was watching one of those old, "I'm Tiger Woods" ads, and thought, "Well, hell, if they're all Tiger Woods, then I'm god! And think I'll go show these people how pissed off I am!"

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.