Vesica

New College in Sarasota...I only asked so oddly because I went to school there with 3 people from Pensacola....

Let me state clearly: The groups mentioned were a minority but a rather abrasive, vocal minority...You know "We are open-minded so if you don't agree with us you are obviously suffering from some sort of 'ism'"....

Philosoft

Hm, okay. Small world.

<strong> Sounds like the kind of people that would be rather easy to dismiss as nutcases.

Keith Russell

Is Christianity (or broader religon as a whole) OK as a personal choice?

--Depends on what you mean by 'OK'. Do I find it a valid (true) choice? No. Do I find it advocates any philosophical views with which I agree? Very few--if any. Do I think you are an idiot for being a Christian? Certainly not. Do I believe that, by accepting Christianity, you have made some metaphysicl and/or epistemological errors? Oh, yes.

Is there an inherent problem with people embracing religion, in spite of the evidence or lack thereof?

--Yes. I believe that reason is our sole means to truth, the only method by which one can gain a valid understanding of reality. Thus, to accept supernatural and/or mystical claims as valid, is to believe that there are other means to truth (such as revelation, or ancient claims) which are equally valid--equally true--as those validated by reason. This leaves one defenseless against basically any claim one might desire to believe. (The Mormons even exploit this in their recruitment: saying that if you already believe the Bible, you have just as much--meaning not much--reason to believe that the Book of Mormon is also true.)

Thus, not only is Christianity invalid, and every other religion on earth, but also any belief which assumes the existence of supernatural or mystical phenomena or occurances.

Moreover, can one be an intelligent individual and still embrace a religous faith, particularly Christianity?

--Certainly. Embracing Christianity, or any other religion, doesn't utterly remove your ability to reason and function in reality. But, to the extent that you reject reason in any of your views, you are disarmed against those--including other Christians--who might wish to exploit your faith for thier own purposes.

No, you are not stupid for embracing a religion. But, in my opinion, you are not fully rational, either.

Keith.

philechat

Yes, a religion is "fine" in my opinion if the followings applied:

1. It does not claim to be the "only source of truth". Even scientists refuse to make an affirmative statement as such.

2. It does not exclude forming relationships both casual and intimate with others because of different religious beliefs

3. It does not threaten non-believers to eternal punishment.

4. It considers non-belief as a valid worldview and not as threat.

5. It does not intentionally disrupt civil laws.

6. It does not practice racial or gender discrimination.

7. It does not establish theocracy based on its worldview.

I think these are pre-requisite for the more rational (intelligent) kinds of religion. People who choose a certain religion after a long search period are in general more "intrinsically-oriented" and willing to open to other worldviews. Unfortunately many people seem to choose religion for social and practical benefits ("extrinsic believers") rather than as a search for truth. As a rule I do not respect the intelligence of extrinsic believers.

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: philechat ]</p>

Starboy

Hi Vesica,

After reading your post it made me wonder why people chose to believe in anything. Please don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that I believe in nothing, but as a general question, why do people seem to need to believe in something, be it Jesus, Moses, Mohamed or whatever? Come to think of it, I know of no one that sincerely believes in nothing. I wonder if it is just part of the human condition to have to believe in something?

All that being said, I think that it is just too hard to believe in nothing. Well then, if we have to believe in something, maybe we should try to pick a belief system that will do us the most good. However, that is easier said than done who can know the entire extent of ones life and therefore have the knowledge needed to choose wisely. So I say, to hell with it, if the belief fits, wear it! But just be adult about it and accept the consequences, and don’t sign up for any belief that won’t let you change your mind.

Starboy

seebs

I don't think that accepting supernatural claims is any more incompatible with "reason as a means for obtaining truth" than accepting the evidence of your senses. Reason is how you work *from* your premises; it doesn't always help with selecting premises, except for weeding out the obviously contradictory ones.

I am basically agnostic about most claims of magic; in some contexts, it appears to be as good a model as any, but most of the time, I feel I can safely ignore it.

Believing in God doesn't prevent me from evaluating things rationally, any more than disbelieving did. It's a premise, and I am allowed to pursue the premise to its conclusions.