Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radorth · 04-03-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

The only difference that I can find between Winstonjen and the 3 listed above is that the 3 listed above have chosen to not engage you and your nonsense. OR if they have engaged you,they have somehow managed to remain composed and patient despite your antics and horrible demeanor.

Of course in their case, my demeanor changes miraculously. (Another Rad mystery for you to ponder)

Rad

Yellum Notnef · 04-03-2003, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Of course in their case, my demeanor changes miraculously. (Another Rad mystery for you to ponder)

Rad

I don't believe in miracles and have seen very little difference in how you treat anyone here. You're an equal opportunity offender.
What I don't understand is why you have chosen to brandish the names of a select few here as if doing so somehow helps your case.

But I will have to ponder these amazing mysteries

of Radorth in private as it's become obvious that the mods would rather I ignore you than continue to probe the dark and scary recesses of your mind in public.

fatherphil · 04-03-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by critical thinking made ez
Did the problem between God and Satan happen before man was created?
Did God imprison Satan on Earth before man was created?

Then why did God put his new creation (man) on the same planet (prison) with Satan?

Would you put someone you loved, next door with such evil? Not if you loved them. What’s your god’s reason for such stupidity or evil action?

i don't know
i don't know
i could only guess
no, but then i don't fully comprehend His motivation. as a father i find myself allowing my kids the freedom to choose to screw up to a certain extent. don't know for sure that there is a parrallel there, just throwing it out for consideration.

Magus55 · 04-03-2003, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Magus thinks he is infallible and then changes the bible to suit his own imagination. That way he can claim the authority of the Bible while at the same time doing whatever he pleases. In his defence it's almost impossible to find a Christian on this board who doesn't pull the same stunt.

When did i say i was infallible?

Biff the unclean · 04-03-2003, 10:49 AM

Fatherphil I think the key phrase in what you wrote is "to a certain extent"
I'm assuming that that extent would not include letting your children harm one another or themselves if you could prevent it.
That's one of the many problems with this free will scenario. Criminal neglect.
You have to understand that many times we Atheists talk about God doing terrible things or shutting his eyes while terrible things happen even though we don't believe in a God. What we are trying to do is to point out that the Christian claims of God and his motives are not reflected in the actual world.
The free will scenario is an attempt to portray the absence of action being taken by any outside God as not being the obvious absence of God. An existing God, say, letting an iceberg be in the wrong spot at the wrong time for the Titanic or letting the WTC be destroyed is displaying criminal neglect. Such such inaction is completely contrary to the personality of the God of the NT.
It is, however, completely consistent with a total absence of Gods.
The free will scenario is a modern retort to the Problem of Evil (POE) or how a Good God can let Bad things happen and still remain Good. As you can tell from reading these pages it isn't a very convincing argument. Making it portrays those making it as being very hard hearted. It also shows people like you to be better fathers than God is if this free will scenario is true.

fatherphil · 04-03-2003, 12:10 PM

well first, comparing me to God is a weak one at best. it is sometimes tough to stand back and let your kids do wrong. the tendency or desire to micromanage their life is great yet we know that it may not be in the best interest of a child's growth. case in point. i don't want my daughter to drive my car without my permission. she will be home without my supervision today. do i take the car keys? or do i leave them there while giving her the chance to be trusted not to disobey. what extent would you go to prevent your child from becoming a drug addict or marrying into an abusive situation? how do you prevent such things while allowing them to make their own choices?

obviously i can not prove the existence of God and i don't think that is the challenge of this thread. just want to show the superior position of us living as free beings as opposed to zoo animals.

Biff the unclean · 04-03-2003, 02:15 PM

Gee I dunno fatherphil
obviously i can not prove the existence of God and i don't think that is the challenge of this thread. just want to show the superior position of us living as free beings as opposed to zoo animals.

Ya see there are two diametrically opposed contentions being made here.
One is that we are free because there is nothing to stop us from being free. And that bad things happen because there is nothing to prevent them.

The other is that we are free as a kind of a gift. Bad things happen but for good reasons.

The problem with this second one is that it ignores everything the bible claims about the God. And it ignores moral responsibility.
You mention your daughter and the car. Do you trust her not to disobey you or not when you aren't there? Well lets give you some of the power of God and re-ask the same question. Now you are there (you just can't be seen) Now you know that she will take the car and drive one of her girlfriends to the animal hospital to save a sick kitten even though you told her to stay home. Now you know that she is a very good driver.
BUT now you also know that Marge McBride of Tucson is going to get a cell phone call from her Ex, and while talking will run a red light crash into your daughter's car. The girlfriend will be killed outright and your daughter will be burned over 80% of her body.
You have the power to prevent this, do you use it or do you trust your daughter?

See, with power come responsibility. If God can do these things and won't it reduces him to the role of monster. The real world does not reflect a God such as that in the bible. You would have a much easier time promoting the Olympian Gods as being real. They didn't care what happened to people. They thought a lot of it was funny. They were in the hands of the Fates as much as we are. The Bible God is very different from them and you should be able to see his actions if the bible is accurate. But you cannot. "Free will" is only a verbal tap dance explaining away the absence of God.

fatherphil · 04-03-2003, 02:31 PM

i use my god-like ability to hide the car keys. yet how do i grow to trust her by doing that?

Biff the unclean · 04-03-2003, 02:42 PM

Trust?
You trust someone to do the right thing when you don't actually know what they are going to do.
If you know what they are going to do trust has noting to to with it. The God is supposed to already know what is going to happen so "trust" would not be a meaningful term to use

fatherphil · 04-04-2003, 09:36 AM

biff, i figure the entire purpose of us suffering through this crap can existence called life involved us growing somehow. otherwise God should take us out once we clear the womb since He knows the end of it all anyway. if we are driving down a path, do we have a choice to turn left?

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04-03-2003, 10:49 AM	#85
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Fatherphil I think the key phrase in what you wrote is "to a certain extent" I'm assuming that that extent would not include letting your children harm one another or themselves if you could prevent it. That's one of the many problems with this free will scenario. Criminal neglect. You have to understand that many times we Atheists talk about God doing terrible things or shutting his eyes while terrible things happen even though we don't believe in a God. What we are trying to do is to point out that the Christian claims of God and his motives are not reflected in the actual world. The free will scenario is an attempt to portray the absence of action being taken by any outside God as not being the obvious absence of God. An existing God, say, letting an iceberg be in the wrong spot at the wrong time for the Titanic or letting the WTC be destroyed is displaying criminal neglect. Such such inaction is completely contrary to the personality of the God of the NT. It is, however, completely consistent with a total absence of Gods. The free will scenario is a modern retort to the Problem of Evil (POE) or how a Good God can let Bad things happen and still remain Good. As you can tell from reading these pages it isn't a very convincing argument. Making it portrays those making it as being very hard hearted. It also shows people like you to be better fathers than God is if this free will scenario is true.

04-03-2003, 12:10 PM	#86
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	well first, comparing me to God is a weak one at best. it is sometimes tough to stand back and let your kids do wrong. the tendency or desire to micromanage their life is great yet we know that it may not be in the best interest of a child's growth. case in point. i don't want my daughter to drive my car without my permission. she will be home without my supervision today. do i take the car keys? or do i leave them there while giving her the chance to be trusted not to disobey. what extent would you go to prevent your child from becoming a drug addict or marrying into an abusive situation? how do you prevent such things while allowing them to make their own choices? obviously i can not prove the existence of God and i don't think that is the challenge of this thread. just want to show the superior position of us living as free beings as opposed to zoo animals.

04-03-2003, 02:15 PM	#87
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Gee I dunno fatherphil obviously i can not prove the existence of God and i don't think that is the challenge of this thread. just want to show the superior position of us living as free beings as opposed to zoo animals. Ya see there are two diametrically opposed contentions being made here. One is that we are free because there is nothing to stop us from being free. And that bad things happen because there is nothing to prevent them. The other is that we are free as a kind of a gift. Bad things happen but for good reasons. The problem with this second one is that it ignores everything the bible claims about the God. And it ignores moral responsibility. You mention your daughter and the car. Do you trust her not to disobey you or not when you aren't there? Well lets give you some of the power of God and re-ask the same question. Now you are there (you just can't be seen) Now you know that she will take the car and drive one of her girlfriends to the animal hospital to save a sick kitten even though you told her to stay home. Now you know that she is a very good driver. BUT now you also know that Marge McBride of Tucson is going to get a cell phone call from her Ex, and while talking will run a red light crash into your daughter's car. The girlfriend will be killed outright and your daughter will be burned over 80% of her body. You have the power to prevent this, do you use it or do you trust your daughter? See, with power come responsibility. If God can do these things and won't it reduces him to the role of monster. The real world does not reflect a God such as that in the bible. You would have a much easier time promoting the Olympian Gods as being real. They didn't care what happened to people. They thought a lot of it was funny. They were in the hands of the Fates as much as we are. The Bible God is very different from them and you should be able to see his actions if the bible is accurate. But you cannot. "Free will" is only a verbal tap dance explaining away the absence of God.

04-03-2003, 02:31 PM	#88
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	i use my god-like ability to hide the car keys. yet how do i grow to trust her by doing that?

04-03-2003, 02:42 PM	#89
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Trust? You trust someone to do the right thing when you don't actually know what they are going to do. If you know what they are going to do trust has noting to to with it. The God is supposed to already know what is going to happen so "trust" would not be a meaningful term to use

04-04-2003, 09:36 AM	#90
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	biff, i figure the entire purpose of us suffering through this crap can existence called life involved us growing somehow. otherwise God should take us out once we clear the womb since He knows the end of it all anyway. if we are driving down a path, do we have a choice to turn left?

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