slept2long

Right, they have no means of self-determination. We can't say why they kill, Pals or Israelis. Maybe the Pals get fed up and decide to do SOMETHING. Living under the boot of the IDF has got to be a wondeful thing. Only a horrible arab regimes could make someone in that situation get a gun or a bomb and kill. Don't you see that the Pals are manipulated by EVERYONE. Arabs, Israelis, US, the whole international community. Plenty of blame to go around.
Actually as pawns they can be brought to sacrifice rather easily. Sacrifice land, water rights, heck we can even get them to give up electromagnetic spectrum rights on the area because they are powerless. Israel nows this. That's why Sharon has said repeatedly he won't stop building settlements or the 20 foot high security fence that's already under way.

slept2long

Which is why we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Passed the patriot act. And created the department of homeland security. We are pawns just like they are. Manipulated all the way.

It's why Israel expands the settlements when a majority of Israelis wouldn't mind giving them up if it meant peace. It's why we still buy oil from the country that may have paid for 9/11 and supplied 15 of the 19 hijackers.

Both groups of citizens have given up alot of there control to people who they think can better solve there problems. Except the Israelis and ourselves elect our leaders. I guess Arafat was elected but the Hamas' and whomever weren't. They offer what no one has delivered. They don't deliver but everyones to worn out from years of conflict to care. Next weeks gathering will bring new rhetoric to liven there spirits. Israel should recognize this and make an effort to show that they have the answers to the Pals problems and deliver. Sure they'll lose lives in the process. But I bet they'd have Palestinian volunteers once the people realized a solution was possible and saw it before their eyes. All they see now are tanks and soldiers. That doesn't inspire anything.

Jat

Make that "haven't passed the course either.."

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by slept2long
OK. But I in no way equate personal with national when it comes to the cause and effect. Nations are different than people(DUH) so different rules and conseqences apply.

The form the actions take differ but the same concept applies. Between nations self-defense is more liberal as at a personal level the threat must be immediate. If you know the guy is going to try to kill you next week you go to the cops. A nation is justified in attacking, though.

Not exactly. Deadly force isn't always justified. You must prove you were in fear for your life in Florida at least, I believe. So if the gun was a revolver with a bent barrel or a water pistol....
A war between nations has DIFFERENT rules.

Well, normally someone pointing a gun at you would make you fear for your life!
As for a bent barrel or a water pistol--only if you realize the weapon is unusable or not real. There have been plenty of cases of people pointing realistic fakes (generally at the police--suicide by cop) and getting killed for it.

Of whom? Israel? The arab natins surrounding them? The US? Hamas? Islamic Jihad? Pawns must have masters and multiple ones at that.

Pawns of the Arabs. I thought it was obvious who I was referring to.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by Jat
How they are used is. What war? Is there an official state of war declared here?

It's a proxy war between Israel and the Arabs.

We do not have the technology even now to hit only combatants. You judge terrorist vs freedom fighter by what they were aiming at.

No, I judge by who gets to write the official version. That is the only real difference.

Only to those who support terrorism.

Loren Pechtel

The problem with the right of return is the *NUMBER* of people involved. Israel is a democracy--granting the right of return would suddenly flip power to those very hostile to the Jews. Disaster.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by slept2long
Some peacekeepers huh?

Yeah--peacekeepers aren't very good at keeping the peace against organized groups.

When was this? And why does what the arabs say matter? Tell them to fuck off. WHOOPS! They have all the oil we need. What a nice bad of shite we are laying in.

Of course the peacekeepers left. They aren't armed for conflict at that level.

I still don't believe that it's suicide for them to allow the right of return.

The problem is the ballot box.

I think if Israeli's are so dead set against it they should offer just compensation instead. Like paying for new housing in Palestine and assuring freedom of the airwaves for the Pals.

I rather suspect they have something like that in mind to try to negotiate if the current peace process actually goes anywhere.

Not simply "go fly a kite". Israel has a lot to make up for right along with the Pals. Maybe they should make one big country instead? Makes dealing with water rights easier.

Same problem as with the right of return.

Loren Pechtel

????

I'm talking about the ones that stayed in Israel and didn't run when the Arabs told them to.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by slept2long
Right, they have no means of self-determination. We can't say why they kill, Pals or Israelis. Maybe the Pals get fed up and decide to do SOMETHING. Living under the boot of the IDF has got to be a wondeful thing. Only a horrible arab regimes could make someone in that situation get a gun or a bomb and kill. Don't you see that the Pals are manipulated by EVERYONE. Arabs, Israelis, US, the whole international community. Plenty of blame to go around.

It's the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

slept2long

If a nation knows it is about to be attacked I agree it's reasonable for them fire first if the force they are facing warrants such a response. Israel's defending itself, 3 times I think, is reasonable to me. However when a threat has ceased, or minimized to a level that the existence of a country is no longer at stake I do believe that a different response is warranted. What about you? When you face unarmed civilians you don't run them over because your afraid of sniper fire on account of your illiegally being in there territory. When a funeral is winding through the streets you don't open fire on the crowd to kill a militant.

Right. If you know the situation poses less than dire harm to you shooting someone is a crime. I have heard that if someone breaks into your house and you shoot them on site your likely to be charged with a crime unless you can prove you believed they posed a danger to your life considering you had a gun and did not know if they did or not.
Sad but true.

It was. My point is they are really pawns of multiple masters. Israel wants more land and the arabs want to get rid of Israel. Leaving this unsettled keeps the scales from tilting in anyones favor.