Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 06-13-2002, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
<strong>... The human tailbone is an example. We no longer leap through trees like our ancestors, so a tail is no longer needed for balance. A large tail might be a survival disadvantage for a ground-dwelling primate. ... </strong>

One problem: there are numerous ground-living animals that have tails, so living on the ground does not lead to a tail being selected out of existence. In fact, some animals have very bushy tails, which most likely serve as predator deception.

Another scenario: human/great-ape ancestors were once much like the gibbons and siamangs, which brachiate through trees, grabbing branches and hanging as they grab. There is an interesting vestige of this in our anatomy: the ability to point one's arms upward.

This may have forced the loss of the tail because it would be difficult to keep it out of the way. But once the tail is lost, it's lost, except for a few vestigial bones.

scigirl · 06-13-2002, 04:55 PM

Zetek,

I think I'll stay away from ohio (my name used to be froggie you see).

scigirl

Douglas J. Bender · 06-13-2002, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Step 1: skunk uses musk to mark territory. When frightened, some skunk "lets go" behind it and the irritation to the predator causes it to sometimes leave it alone. Those that do this survive more than those that don't....

Implied assumptions:

Predator is not hungry enough to ignore a little foul odor (must be the famed but never proved to exist Persnicketus Fineckious)

All the "just right" scenarios occur often enough to eventually "select" stinkier and stinkier, and more and more accurate, skunks. Problem is, it is ASSUMED that faster and faster skunks are not being selected for AT THE SAME TIME. Thus, it just so happens that skunks developed a "stink" defense, rather than evolving a bit more speed or climbing ability. "Just so" stories, again.

"Well, it could have happened that way." Sure, and it could have happened that a particular genetic defect caused all predators to perceive skunks as some kind of giant snake, and they thus avoided them at all costs. How could we know if that's not what happened?

In Christ,

Douglas

Duvenoy · 06-13-2002, 04:57 PM

"Copperheads, water moccasins, and other snakes can definitely emit a stench when disturbed; I can personally attest to that."

Oh yes! I currently keep two Florida Cottons (A. p. conanti). The old male went bonkers on me at a presentation last year, resulting in him being retired. The stench was like a very old and well-used, tom cat's territory marker and my aduience was all but apalled. The female can also be a pretty rank when she's pissed, but 'Goblin' has a lot more patience than 'Anthrax'. For some reason that I am unable to explain, Cottons are my all time favorites.

I don't understand why Creationists insist on taking the physical varibles in common behavior and use it to try and prove the esentially improvable. This is grasping at the thinnist of straws.

doov

Douglas J. Bender · 06-13-2002, 05:01 PM

lpetrich,

Quote:

There is an interesting vestige of this in our anatomy: the ability to point one's arms upward.

And how do you know that this ability is merely a "vestige", and not a design feature?

Quote:

This may have forced the loss of the tail because it would be difficult to keep it out of the way. But once the tail is lost, it's lost, except for a few vestigial bones.

The tailbone actually functions to aid in human stability in motion, or something like this. It is necessary for certain muscles to attach to, and is no "vestigial" part, lacking function. Another example of evolutionists' getting carried away with evolutionary ideas, ala the "vestigial appendix".

In Christ,

Douglas

Sauron · 06-13-2002, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Douglas J. Bender:

The tailbone actually functions to aid in human stability in motion, or something like this.

Source, please?

Quote:

It is necessary for certain muscles to attach to, and is no "vestigial" part, lacking function.

Source, please?

RufusAtticus · 06-13-2002, 05:07 PM

Quote:

And how do you know that this ability is merely a "vestige", and not a design feature?

If it is a "design feature," how do you propose it got there?

~~RvFvS~~

[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

Mageth · 06-13-2002, 05:08 PM

The tailbone actually functions to aid in human stability in motion...

How?

It is necessary for certain muscles to attach to...

Not "necessary." The same muscles could be attached to the pelvis without change in function.

Bible Humper · 06-13-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

All the "just right" scenarios occur often enough to eventually "select" stinkier and stinkier, and more and more accurate, skunks. Problem is, it is ASSUMED that faster and faster skunks are not being selected for AT THE SAME TIME. Thus, it just so happens that skunks developed a "stink" defense, rather than evolving a bit more speed or climbing ability. "Just so" stories, again.

Hello Douglas, what if that extra speed and improved ability to climb did evolve but became superfluous afterwards? These days skunks waddle around slowly and get away with it because nothing wants anything to do with it, but maybe it wasn't so before. Surely their current defense is far better than speed!

Mageth · 06-13-2002, 05:19 PM

Predator is not hungry enough to ignore a little foul odor (must be the famed but never proved to exist Persnicketus Fineckious)

All it takes is for the foul odor to be effective against at least some predators to give it selective advantage.

All the "just right" scenarios occur often enough to eventually "select" stinkier and stinkier, and more and more accurate, skunks.

Pretty much.

Problem is, it is ASSUMED that faster and faster skunks are not being selected for AT THE SAME TIME. Thus, it just so happens that skunks developed a "stink" defense, rather than evolving a bit more speed or climbing ability. "Just so" stories, again.

Speed and climbing, like most other adaptations, come at a cost. Natural selection is a "balancing act" between may different characteristics. For the skunk, its scent capabilities allowed it to minimize on speed and climbing (although skunks can climb and run, if necessary) and to keep or strenthen other characteristics that are beneficial to its way of life (pokin' along on the ground, lookin' for bugs, worms, eggs and such).

And since some of the skunk's relatives did develop other skills which may have defensive as well as other advantages (climbing, speed, even aquatic capabilities (the otter)), and most don't have as highly developed scent defense, you're just lending more credence to the theory!

"Well, it could have happened that way." Sure, and it could have happened that a particular genetic defect caused all predators to perceive skunks as some kind of giant snake, and they thus avoided them at all costs. How could we know if that's not what happened?

Then why do skunks stink?

Actually, most predators learn quite quickly to leave skunks alone. It usually only takes one encounter by a young predator to learn that skunks are no fun. Hence the black-and-white markings as a warning.

Care to make our case any more for us?

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06-13-2002, 04:55 PM	#22
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Zetek, I think I'll stay away from ohio (my name used to be froggie you see). scigirl

06-13-2002, 04:57 PM	#24
Duvenoy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Just another hick from the sticks. Posts: 1,108	"Copperheads, water moccasins, and other snakes can definitely emit a stench when disturbed; I can personally attest to that." Oh yes! I currently keep two Florida Cottons (A. p. conanti). The old male went bonkers on me at a presentation last year, resulting in him being retired. The stench was like a very old and well-used, tom cat's territory marker and my aduience was all but apalled. The female can also be a pretty rank when she's pissed, but 'Goblin' has a lot more patience than 'Anthrax'. For some reason that I am unable to explain, Cottons are my all time favorites. I don't understand why Creationists insist on taking the physical varibles in common behavior and use it to try and prove the esentially improvable. This is grasping at the thinnist of straws. doov

06-13-2002, 05:08 PM	#28
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	The tailbone actually functions to aid in human stability in motion... How? It is necessary for certain muscles to attach to... Not "necessary." The same muscles could be attached to the pelvis without change in function.

06-13-2002, 05:19 PM	#30
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Predator is not hungry enough to ignore a little foul odor (must be the famed but never proved to exist Persnicketus Fineckious) All it takes is for the foul odor to be effective against at least some predators to give it selective advantage. All the "just right" scenarios occur often enough to eventually "select" stinkier and stinkier, and more and more accurate, skunks. Pretty much. Problem is, it is ASSUMED that faster and faster skunks are not being selected for AT THE SAME TIME. Thus, it just so happens that skunks developed a "stink" defense, rather than evolving a bit more speed or climbing ability. "Just so" stories, again. Speed and climbing, like most other adaptations, come at a cost. Natural selection is a "balancing act" between may different characteristics. For the skunk, its scent capabilities allowed it to minimize on speed and climbing (although skunks can climb and run, if necessary) and to keep or strenthen other characteristics that are beneficial to its way of life (pokin' along on the ground, lookin' for bugs, worms, eggs and such). And since some of the skunk's relatives did develop other skills which may have defensive as well as other advantages (climbing, speed, even aquatic capabilities (the otter)), and most don't have as highly developed scent defense, you're just lending more credence to the theory! "Well, it could have happened that way." Sure, and it could have happened that a particular genetic defect caused all predators to perceive skunks as some kind of giant snake, and they thus avoided them at all costs. How could we know if that's not what happened? Then why do skunks stink? Actually, most predators learn quite quickly to leave skunks alone. It usually only takes one encounter by a young predator to learn that skunks are no fun. Hence the black-and-white markings as a warning. Care to make our case any more for us?

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