JamesKrieger

There is no evidence that ketosis is "bad for you." Epileptic children are kept on ketogenic diets for years with no major health problems. Ketones are always present in the blood....even on a normal mixed diet (just not to the same degree as on a ketogenic diet). They are not some sort of abnormal byproduct of fatty acid metabolism.

People confuse dietary-induced ketosis with diabetic ketoacidosis, which is dangerous and life threatening. The difference is in the concentration of ketones in the blood. During dietary ketosis, ketones rise to about 8 x the normal concentration on a mixed diet. In diabetic ketoacidosis, ketone concentrations rise to 20-25 x that on a normal mixed diet. Big difference.

acronos

Several people have said that the way to loose weight is to burn more energy than you absorb. While this is true, it is not a very good argument to me against the Atkins diet. The Atkins diet causes a decrease in appetite. If you are less hungry you eat less.

My anecdotal evidence concerning the Atkins diet:
I lost from 240 back to 190 with no problems maintaining that weight. I was weak for the first few days and then I felt better than I have ever felt before. My hands used to shake pretty badly all the time. That cleared up 100% while I was on the Atkins diet and it has never returned. It also significantly affected my mood for the better. The weight was NOT all water weight because I looked significantly better.

I have a friend who has been on a low carb diet for almost 20 years. He is over 60 now and continues to be in excellent health, both by external observation and by blood work. He was borderline type II diabetic when he started and severely overweight. He has weighed about 190 (he's 6'4") since he started the diet 20 years ago.

Several of the people I know who have tried the diet have experienced what some of you described about weakness. They hated the diet for this reason. I think for some people this diet does not make them feel good. For me I feel better than any other diet I have ever tried including no diet. My blood cholesterol was vastly improved. The balance of HDL and LDL was excellent.

I think that there is insufficient evidence to condemn this diet. The scientific community is just starting to really test low carb diets out. I think the results of these studies will prove that the advocacy of low fat diet was a mistake. I know it was a mistake for me because I only gained weight on a low-fat diet. I found it overwhelming to summon sufficient willpower to reduce my caloric intake on any diet other than the low-carb.

I think few of you have actually read the books you are condemning. If you had read them then you would be more careful how you word your criticisms of ketosis and kidney problems. To adequately address these issues would require an even more ridiculously long post. Surely, most of you could go through one of the low-carb books in an afternoons reading. You might learn more than you think you would.

BTW, I am not a complete success story. When I got married 3 years ago my wife refused to cook a low-carb diet. She is very into sweets and I found it very difficult to watch her eat deserts every meal and not have any myself. I gained all the weight back. That had nothing to do with a failure of the diet though. It had everything to do with getting married and trying to compromise.

Dr Rick

Whew, what a relief.

Rick

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

Hans

I have read the latest book by Dr. Atkins. I find he makes a pretty strong case for his diet. In fact, he even encourages his readers to have their blood work done before they begin the diet and then again six weeks into the diet. Dr. Atkins claims that for the vast majority there will be improvement. Did you find that your triglyceride and cholesterol levels elevated under the plan?

=======

To everyone,

Dr. Atkins makes it clear that the amount of carbs an individual will be able to consume without gaining weight will vary from person to person. Exercise and muscle mass being the greatest determinant. Athletes who exercise strenuously for hours every day and who have a larger than average muscle mass can consume 100's of grams of carbs a day without putting on weight. Not true of anyone who does not exercise and has a small muscle mass.

[ July 26, 2002: Message edited by: Hans ]</p>

Bokonon

Bokonon – sorry but I have to rip on you for “TRUE vegetarian” as it is too close to “TRUE Christian.”

I think the Christian would have a case if the opposing Christian said, "Yeah, I worship Jesus... occasionally praying to Vishnu." That is all I meant. They can eat whatever they want. But calling themselves vegetarians is simply not accurate.

People are unhealthy for many reasons, diet being one of those reasons.

I agree with you.

Many people vegetarian and non-vegetarian don’t have a clue about nutrition and exercise and therefore suffer the consequences. If you are eating a balanced diet as a vegetarian you probably aren’t unhealthy, just as those eating a balanced diet whom eat meat are also healthy.

Ah, but studies show reducing that meat lowers one's risk for heart disease, stroke, cancers, and diabetes.

And on an anecdotal note – there use to be a poster here who is vegetarian who posted eating pretty much cheese pizza and orange juice – NOT good and probably a heart attack, or diabetes in the making.

I agree. In fact, when I became a vegetarian, I gained weight. Why? I switched all my meat intake to cheese intake. The transition to a vegan diet is where I really lost weight.

If you aren’t eating a B vitamin fortified cereal and you don’t eat either eggs or dairy products you may want to consider a supplement as plant sources do not have much useable B12 and deficiencies may take 3-20 years to show up.

I drink Soymilk that is fortified. Ethically, I have no problem with eating eggs produced by chickens taken care of on a small farm so long as they are truly taken care of. I do not eat those eggs either, but I have no moral objection to them.

Some of the effects of B12 deficiencies aren’t pretty and although deficiency levels can be rectified some of the nerve damage cannot be. Most people should take a multi-vitamin because too often we fail to eat foods high in nutrients and if we are to believe the research about soil depletion and it’s ravaging affects on the nutrient content of food … well it could be something to consider.

I eat a very balanced diet. I probably eat more protein than I should. When I gave blood a few months ago, they tested me for Iron. I was in normal range.

I was thinking about Carl Lewis last night and did some more research on him. I wonder what sort of athletic performance he would have had if he was raised vegetarian as opposed to being raised as a meat eater (as I believe he was) and to see a comparative test on his performance, endurance, muscular development or loss once he switched – not simply anecdotal but an actual scientific study. It would also be interesting to see how his performance etc. would have rated has he maintained that diet. I know that really isn’t possible, but it sure would be interesting. Regardless, Carl Lewis is an extraordinary athlete who is incredibly genetically gifted – would love to have some of his genes

I gave Carl Lewis as a firm example of how absurd it is to make a claim such as, "vegetarians are weak." Had he been raised as a vegetarian, he would have had less of a risk of certain childhood diseases no doubt. He may have become a few inches shorter, but is that a bad thing? Smaller people on average live longer than taller people. I agree with you though on one point. If one wants a body builder physique, they need to pay more attention to their diet, whether vegetarian or non. However, for a normal healthy build, in my experience, it's simply much easier to achieve it on a vegetarian/vegan diet. I am not there yet, but I am closer than ever before in my life.

universatile

In my opinion the difference between whole and refined grains is not so concequential. The chinese eat white rice and are fine.
If you would refer to my link beyondveg.com
you will find plenty of hard evidence that health problems erupted in humanity with the onset of the neolithic revolution, arthritis, heart disease, etc. This is not to say that paleolithic peoples had easier lives, they died not from disease but from accidents and overall hard lifestyles. However their bodies were more fit.
All of the whole grains you listed are in my opinion the worst for you. I prefer to get my startches from potatoes, yams, or maize (corn), all of which are less fioberous but are dealt with much better by my own system.

To say that high glycemic startches make you fat is irrelevant to me because I do construction and burn it all off. I eat over 4000 calories on some days and need it. But for the average american I would agree with you.

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: universatile ]

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: universatile ]</p>

universatile

Claudia-

I agree that grains were eaten before neolithic, just not in high quantities. I agree.

I dont think your tips are very good.

If you want to lose weight-
Avoid all Dairy.
Walk everywhere.
No fried foods.
No mayonase on the sandwiches.
Lean meats only.

Dairy will make one fat faster than anything else. Sorry ben, sorry jerry. (One of those guys recently had a bypass surgery on his heart.

peace

Benjamin Franklin

Are milk and yogurt considered to be good for one's health ? I have read some diets that recommend that people avoid diary products. Other than it will cause you to become fat, are there any reasons why one should avoid diary proudcts? If fat is the the only problem, couldn't one just take the skim versions

Tjun Kiat

Claudia

Universatile,
I didn't explained how to lose weight. But how to retrieve an eating schedule which often helps to eat less without consciently doing so, and also which helps reducing fat content because if you are eating home made food mostly (which is the case if you follow what I propose) you will have a reasonable amount of fat in your food. For people who have irregular eating habits and which eat a lot of snack food/preprocessed food, it is often enough to lose some weight, may be not a lot but it helps.
About the dairy, I disagree. Some of it contains a lot of fat (hey, I live in a country where there is more than 400 different kinds of cheese), but milk can be skimmed, and there are a lot of dairy products like yoghourt which do not contain so much fat. Specifically, women should never suppress all dairy because it is the easiest way of getting calcioum, and unfortunately we are too moch exposed to osteoporosis. It is fought (at least for a part) by taking a sufficient amount of calcium from childhood and all life long. It is possible to get calcium from other sources, but not so easily.

Personnally, I eat mayonnaise only with fish and seafood, never in sandwiches. But I do not sandwiches either, excepted when I travel and I have no possibility to eat something else.
I agrea with your "lean meat only".

For a diet to be succesful, it must be not boring (hence my "learn how to cook" which will allow people to eat a huge variety of things -at least different ways to prepare things-), and also it must allow people to eat a sufficient volume of food, to feel sated when they end their meal. Then it must contain enough starch and proteins not to be hungry before the next meal.

And do not forget that fish (not fried) is a good source of proteins, and that fish fat is more healthy that meat fat!

But I agree that if people has a lot of weight to lose, what I propose is not enough, but in this case it must be done with medical help (or at least control). Nevertheless, in this case, to have first gained regular food habits would help a lot.

And in my opinion, the more important in what I propose is: drink almost only water, and never coke or soft drinks. Coke is an healthy drink against deshydratation, but not to lose weight.

Ensign Morituri

I know I'm probably not the first person to corroborate this, but I highly recommend "Body For Life." I got twigged onto it by one of my girlfriend's co-workers who won her category in the Canadian competition and the results were dramatic to say the least. So last year I gave it a shot and carried it through until the end. The results were incredible and I never felt better. Of course the one week reward break Bill Phillips advocates has been extended about 60 times now, so I guess it was all for naught in the end. Sloth and gluttony inevitably won out over health, energy and strength.

But hey, the bug I picked up while overseas last week has trimmed my waistline considerably! oog.