brighid

JP2,

You aren’t a thug, but perhaps you don’t understand paganism, which Wicca is a form of. The thing Heathen Dawn wants is some ritual in his life, and I personally understand that. That is THEE reason I participate in pagan ritual. Atheism is intellectually honest (the only way to go), but it is ONLY a lack of belief in Gods. It does not provide any support system, any human rituals or traditions in that was lacks a certain human, social element that is provided in paganism. That human social aspect is also one of the reasons why people cling to Christianity despite all the evidence to the contradict their beliefs. The difference with paganism is that one does NOT need to believe in anything – Gods, Goddesses, fairies, etc. in order to participate in the community or in ritual. I personally feel ritual enriches my life. It is something to look forward to and for us secular pagans it is a creative outlet for meditation and visualization that fits ours personalities and that I do not find outlet for in other arenas. I personally need the structure of a group for meditation and visualization. I also appreciate the bonds that have been created between my “sisters” and I,; bonds that I don’t share with any other set of friends. Some people are loners , some people are more social by nature perhaps those of atheists who are more social by nature find something in paganism that our loner counter parts aren’t interested in. Paganism is a great way to study, revere and marvel at the enormity and wonder of our natural world. It does not shun science, although some do but that is also their right to do so. We ARE a part of the natural world. Our bodies, minds and environments cannot escape its grasp and paganism can be a vehicle to help one become more aware and become more in tune with those natural cycles. It’s hard not to see the umbrella of paganism as ones sees the restrictive, monotheistic Abrahamic religions because that is what we are use to. The same rules need not, nor do they apply even if there are fluff bunnies, or dogmatic pagans. One must pick and choose from the vast volumes of information available and adapt that information to suit reality, but that is part of the beauty I find in paganism – I CAN.

Brighid

Heathen Dawn

Wow! I think Brighid said most of what needed saying. That was a great zeroing onto my mind, that was.

</strong>

I remember nature walks at schooltime, or watching TV specials about nature, and like science lessons, I find them to be devoid of any emotional appeal. Religion is all about emotion, and nothing to do with rationality. Well, I'm emotional therefore religious, and though I don't want to sacrifice rationality entirely, I have a tendency to turn even atheism into a religion.

</strong>

I test them all. I'm not going to disregard any religion beforehand, I'm going to test to see whether they fit me.

</strong>

As in "science class"? No thanks. As I said, science is dead boring. I don't care what the animals do, how the plants grow or how far the stars shine. All I want is a hard-to-describe feeling of interconnectedness, a "divine experience". I may have my aversion to mystery religions, but I'm also attracted to their main gist.

</strong>

Without spirituality I am nothing.

</strong>

I honestly don't know if I am. My rational self is quite against all that mystic stuff, but my emotional self craves them. What I'm trying to find is a way to have a religion of ritual and initiation and mystical feelings without having to believe in supernatural nonsense. If this sounds oxymoronic, I can only comment that this is interesting and difficult work.

</strong>

It's the spiritual, emotional goodies that I'm after. If I can have these without all the supernatural stuff, then I'm all set.

</strong>

Wicca has communion, ritual and initiation to offer. Reverence alone has little impact on my whole life. I can go a whole day "reverring nature" without it having any impact on my workday. What I want is to be fully imbued with the feel of spirituality. I want to eat, drink and breathe some kind of spiritual system. I want religion (based on naturalism, of course) to permeate my life. It's a question of personal happiness and inner peace.

Call me weird if you like - that's my personality.

brighid

Heathen Dawn,

My initiation into the group was very moving and emotional. It is something I will not soon forget. I know that you can blend your emotional needs with your rational mind, without being dishonest to either. The Gods and Goddesses are nothing more then anthropomorphic archetypes that embody specific human qualities that sometimes need to be called upon from within ones self (very Jungian I suppose). They are ideas/images to meditate on in order to help bring your mind into a state of preparedness for an upcoming task. They don’t affect your life through intercession, but YOU affect your life through intercession. It is all about finding what you need from within.

Seeing the world through the rational eyes of an atheist does not mean one MUST be devoid of traditions, rituals or a quasi-religious nature. I am not even sure if “religious” is an appropriate term for the secular pagan, at least it’s not an appropriate word for my personal situation.

I certainly advise against getting involved with ANY group (secular or otherwise) that may prey upon your vulnerabilities and your desire for community. My path is predominantly solitary and I was very fortunate to find a group of women who meshed with my worldview. I am not sure what opportunities you have in your neck of the woods, but as you probably already know the Internet is a great place to be for exploration. <a href="http://www.witchvox.com" target="_blank">http://www.witchvox.com</a> is a good source of information for the most part.

Wicca and paganism are NOT perfect by any means, but you can adapt it to suit your personal needs. It may also be that because of my Catholic upbringing that I find comfort in something inherently ritualistic (as pagan ritual and Catholic ritual are very similar) and that is why I have always been drawn to paganism. Perhaps your background is similar. Plus, I love going to all the festivals and getting to dress up in some pretty cool outfits … next summer it’s going to be chain maille

Brighid

Rusting Car Bumper

I shall quote Richard Feynman:

Science provides a view of the universe that is far more vast and far more magnificient than any mythical story. The mythical stories, be they about gods of rain or alleged goddesses of the earth, look like "learn the alphabet" books for 3 year olds when compared to the sublime views of seeing the universe through the lens of science.

Science does not detract from ones sense of awe and mystery of nature and the universe. It adds to it. In fact it adds to it in proportions that no other thing has acheived in human history. That is, with science the almost universal aspects of beauty, subliminity, and awe are not lost. Someone who looks at the beauty of nature through the scientific lens does not do so in opposition to using the usual human eyes that see artistic and wonderous beauty but instead they do it in concert with and because of it.

If someone says "science is dead boring" what I hear is a blind person standing inside the Sistine Chapel and saying, "What? I dont see anything? Its boring!"

I used to hang out with pagans and new agers beginning in the 80s because I liked the drum circles. What I noticed is that they are like Christians in a lot of ways much to my shock and amazement. I have to agree with that "Why Wiccans Suck" guy on a number of counts...

DC

[ September 25, 2002: Message edited by: DigitalChicken ]</p>

Heathen Dawn

</strong>

It does. It puts nature and the universe into mere formulas and observations. I derive no enjoyment from just observing things.

</strong>

Nature is not just beautiful. Nature is blind and pitilessly indifferent. Nature just places you - the individual creative soul - as a vessel for the gene pool. Great, that's what I always wanted to be, a vessel for my genes.

But it is boring! I can hear the story of how molecules combine to form compounds, or how dragonflies adapt to different habitats, or how a compass points towards the magnetic north pole, or any such, and it just BORES ME OUT OF MY MIND! I'm not satisfied with observing Nature, I need to commune with Nature. Something more than all that is at hand.

I'm not blind to science. It just really is boring to me.

brighid

Digital Chicken,

You aren’t going to find a secular pagan in this forum that does not understand and respect the virtues of science. But certainly you can admit that what is exciting to one person in a field of science can be a total bore to another. Science is an umbrella term, just as Paganism is. Science is marvelous, but one can have the utmost respect for science and yet be bored to death by it, as well as desire to have a more intimate and mundane relationship with nature. I think the more specific term for that is scientific pantheism, but I do not know if it has rituals such as initiation, honoring, remembrance, death, birth, or other things that enrich the social construct. In this was Wicca and Paganism has a strong draw for those of us who enjoy and desire those sorts of things in our life. The sorts of human interaction that the scientific method cannot provide, even if it explains the chemical, biological and other mechanisms responsible for any given natural occurrence.

I think Heathen Dawn is being honest in his searching, realizing that the “mystical” appeals to his emotional needs although his rational mind is at odds with it. He is also honest when he says he finds science boring and although he respects science he desires more from his interaction in the natural world. Is there really anything wrong with the exploration?

I know it’s difficult for people to understand that there is no necessity for gods in paganism, or tarot cards, crystal healings, or what not and that one can participate in the ritualistic aspects of it without a single belief in anything other then the wonder and beauty of the natural world – without ever disrespecting or disregarding the advances of science.

Brighid

Bree

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

brighid

Bree,

Thanks

Brighid

-RRH-

A good Mystery religion has a certain emotional appeal for me. But my tendency to be rational usually trumps my desire to believe in Elegba, for instance. (I'm using an example from Santeria because I've never been a Wicca fan.)

Primal

It's funny to see many anti-science buffs using the internet.

I personally see science as very exciting, and Richard Dawkins shows that excitement and wonder are what drives science in his book Unweaving the Rainbow and how knowledge adds too instead of detracting from beauty. I in fact, am somewhat troubled by people who find their beauty in ignorance.

In any case, I do not see how someone can claim to be a secularist on one hand and a pagan/spiritualist/Wiccan on the other. To do this one really has to stretch things, I guess this is just an example of people seeing their religious beliefs as "unique" and more legitamate then those "other superstitions though".

I also don't understand what it means to "commune with nature", man is nature, technology is nature, computers are nature; one cannot even escape from nature, which one is a part of so what need is there to commune with nature as opposed to what? Nonnature? Nonnature doesn't exist.

Also mysticism is at odds with rationalism, that is why secularism based on reason and evidence, and mysticism based on "supernatural experience" and faith are mutually exclusive.