Opera Nut

Why don't those Jeezer channels just disconnect their satellite dishes and go back in their caves?

Calzaer

R'BAC:
So if the fundies outnumber the atheists, their minority or non-minority status becomes sort of academic, doesn't it?

Rational BAC

Cal----

Academic? I don't think so. I don't think there was any real debate about whether fundies outnumber atheists.

The problem as I saw it anyway was that it seemed like so many atheists thought the vast majority of Christians were literal fundamentalists. I may be reading more into it than is there, but it seems every time Christian is used by an Atheist---they are talking about fundies, and don't even bother to distinguish mainstream non literal Christianity from literal Fundy Christianity. Maybe they are just being economical with words, but I doubt that. I think many atheists have the strange notion that literal
fundamentalism is Christianity. It is not.

That is the misconception I wanted to try and correct.

Oddly enough, without me having to research anything at all on the subject, the general consensus in this forum seems to be that Fundies are a minority of Christians.

How small a minority? That is still an interesting question. I think someone (probably Bumble Bee) stated that I said that Fundies were only maybe 3% of the Christian population. Well, maybe she misunderstood, but all I meant was that in MY AREA (fairly cosmopolitan---certainly not Bible belt country) it was probably about 1 in 20 or 1 in 30. ------

------ Nationwide, the figure of about 30% or so is probably pretty accurate. But that is what I would like to research, because it is an interesting and very important question---both for atheists and for non-literal Christians.

I do have sympathy for those like Goliath who are most certainly surrounded by very obnoxious Fundies who want to "save" him. And I am sure he can easily get the idea that all Christians are like that. I wanted to assure him that all Christians are NOT like that. That there is no way his rights as an atheist will be completely trampled on----by any kind of anti-atheist laws------not as long as mainstream Christianity holds a definite and clear majority.

I dislike long posts. Will continue later on the subject.

Rational BAC

I do need some kind of concensus about what a Fundy is. Something we can all agree on. Input on this appreciated.

Here is mine.------------Someone who believes literally in the Bible. Meaning word for word the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Meaning Genesis is completely correct. (if anyone of somewhat sane mind could buy Genesis as accurate, then he would buy anything in the Bible without any doubt or skepticism).

So----Here is what I would try to look for, if all of you agree with this definition of a Fundy.------------

Some type of poll of Christians asking if they believed that the account in Genesis is absolutely truthful. That the universe is really only 6000 years old. That the creation of the Earth and the sky and the waters is exactly what happened as recounted in Genesis. That men existed alongside dinosaurs in the very recent past. That if there were ice ages at all, they all occured within recent history. Etc Etc Etc. ------------------------------- All the questions you all ask making mincemeal of Genesis.

Put practical and real world questions about Genesis to Christians in a poll (there are so many polls done that I am almost certain this one has been done) --------

-------and ask if they agree with the Genesis account without question. If say yes --------then they are a literal Christian and a Fundy. If say parts of it yes, parts no----------then all they would really be is a Cherry Picking Christian like myself. Just a matter of degree of cherry picking, but definitely not a literalist.

Would all agree with this?

If not ---then give me your definition of a Fundy. Got to have a starting place somewhere.

Rational BAC

Now you have probably already figured out that I have skewed my idea of a poll determining literal fundamentalist Christianity to cut way down on their numbers.

And you are correct. However I think my definition is an honest one.

But that is OK. I would like to reach some sort of consensus on this. Give me your opinion, and maybe we can come to some kind of a general, possibly compromised, consensus.

Or ---if not. If there ends up being 4 or 5 different versions of what determines a Fundy-----That is still OK-----then it would still be interesting to research different polls and come up with 4 or 5 different results. ----as to how small or large a minority of Christians are fundies.

And we might all learn something. Even me.

BioBeing

Fundamentalist Christians are still Christians. They may not be all of Christianity, but they are a significant (and vocal) portion of it.

If they account for more of the populatin than atheists, that means that more than 14.1 % of the population of the USA. Not an insignifcant number. And not easily ignored.

Bumble Bee Tuna

This is bullshit. Mainstream Christianity does nothing to stand up to fundamentalists. Mainstream Christianity tends to not really support the things fundies do, but just "go along with it" because they aren't truly opposed either. Talk about a church-state issue with a Mainstream Christian and they'll probably say something like "Yeah we probably shouldn't do that, but I don't really care, I believe in God anyway, whatever".

Mainstream Christians don't do anything to fight against discrimination against atheists. This is why fundies are such a problem, even though they are almost certainly a minority.

-B

SpaceNut

My definition of a religious fundamentalist: If you believe that non-believers would be punished or not be rewarded by God, then you are a fundamentalist.

Rational BAC

Well Space Nut----

That was pretty broad. If that is your definition---OK

Just goes to show you that a Fundy can mean almost anything to anybody.

Going to be hard to get a concensus on this, I 'm pretty sure.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Bumble Bee---

I think everyone has to fight their own battles. Mainstream Christianity will not fight every little battle for you. But, mainstream Christianity will also not allow you to go down the tubes. There will be no anti-atheist laws.

You should not distrust overly the common sense of the American people (Christian and otherwise) to know what is right and what is wrong and to protect minorities. -------We are still way too close to the horror of Nazi Germany to forget that the rights of minorities are very important.

Has the ACLU gone out of business? Not that I know of. And get plenty of contributions.

Rhea

RBAC, You have your head in the sand.

Aren't you the one who claimed, "Schools don't even say the pledge any more, and even if they were no one is being told to leave the room and no one is getting negative pressure for just being silent, either!"

Wasn't that you?

You'll pardon me if I don't trust that you have a realistic assessment of how safe - or not - we are from fundamentalism.

...

It wasn't the slaves who got slavery abolished. It wasn't the blacks alone who got JIm Crow laws stopped and segregation stopped. It wasn't women who voted in the right to vote.

Don't you get that?

You -as a human - have to decide that when something is WRONG then you stand up against it even if it's not your personal problem.

Someone said, "I don't agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it."

Except RBAC who says, "I don't agree with you and you're on your own in terms of your right to say it." RBAC says, "I think my majority is going to last forever and never be in danger either locally or nationally." RBAC says, "I'm not suffering, must be nobody is suffering."


Don;t you think the fundies count on people like you to get their oppressive legislation through?