Rational Ag

Yes, Mormons do believe this as well.

Doesn't that just put joy into your heart that all those True Christian Mormons aren't going to hell?

I think this inclusive/exclusive game is fun. By your definition:

Catholics are True Christians.

Seventh Day Adventists are True Christians.

Mormons are True Christians.

<a href="http://www.tfccs.com/GV/QANDA/CSQ7.jhtml" target="_blank">Christian Scientists</a> are True Christians.

What fun!

-Rational Ag

HelenM

oops double post

[ April 30, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

HelenM

Thanks, Brent

love
Helen

IvanK

First off, thanks for trying to be clear about what you believe. It's quite refreshing and I appreciate it.

I don't think we've established that or that it's germaine to the discussion, but let that pass.

Nor can your "very clear record" of Jesus's words and actions. In one place it states Jesus desires that we be one; no mention is made of the need to divide one of us from any other. In another it states Jesus came to divide us from each other; no mention is made of his desire that we be one.

It's as if a medical text said in one place, "to cure malady X you must divide the patient and cause pain," and in another, "the cure for malady X is to cause the patient to be made whole," and left it up to the physician to interpret what the proper treatment should be. No surprises if the doctors are at least confused, if not driven loony.

I've read it and I'm sorry, but it's as clear as mud to me:

The thrust of your citation seems to be that those who sin will be punished whether or not they have sinned with or without "the law." The parenthesis adds that the thoughts of Gentiles, which is to say all those who are not Jews, may accuse or excuse one another of them, of or from what is not clear to me from the passage. I simply don't see anything in this from which to arrive at the conclusion that one might be saved without accepting Jesus, which idea further contradicts Jesus's own words from Mark cited below.

I wouldn't say, "we."

What you say is all well and good; in important respects it tracks with Catholic doctrine as expressed in Dominus Iesus that one might be saved through a special and mysterious act of God's grace without actually having to be Catholic.

But doesn't that again contradict another statement from your very clear record: ``He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.'' (Mark 16:16, KJV) That seems awfully clear to me. He that believeth not, that is to say he that has no knowledge of Jesus, shall be damned, not saved. The statement directly follows the Great Commission that the apostles should go into all nations and preach the Gospel to all people, arguably in order that those who hear it and believe it shall be saved.

bltl6

It sounds like we are in agreement. But I would be careful using the word "parts". It's hard to put the trinity into human terminology, but to say "parts" might indicate that Jesus was part of God, rather than *fully* God in the fleash.

bltl6

You're right. But I don't think anyone was trying to "brush [anything] aside". Rather, we were trying to not get off topic. Perhaps, though, this is a good thread to discuss the trinity?

Rational Ag

Since you seem to be thinking about taking the thread off topic, I am assuming that you feel comfortable with the definition of a True Christian at this point?

I wonder how universally the concluded upon definition would hold with other True Christians.

-Rational Ag

bltl6

Thanx for trying to clarify some things; I'll check out that Christian Science cite.

Now, I don't know if you think you "got me" or something. Understand that I'm very glad if these groups hold that Jesus is God and that he died on the cross only to rise from the dead three days later. It means people I thought didn't believe the truth do believe it. I want all people to come to know the truth. Why would you think anything different?

You haven't been here long, so I'll give you a break.

I would like to ask, though, if you could give me the web. cite or book were you saw that the Mormon church holds that Jesus *IS* God. That was my question.

And BTW, I never said Catholics didn't believe the truth. Some Catholics don't, and some do. Just like Prodestants (or maybe you didn't read my previous posts). And I also never said anything, anywhere about the 7th Day Adv. I've ministered *with* (not TO) them before.

Thanx,

--Brad

Rational Ag

I'm just trying to get to the point of the thread. Christians all seem to have different ideas on what a True Christian believes. When presented with what different groups believe, Christians always seem to dodge-and-weave to modify their definition to fit their sect only.

I'm not trying to "get you", I'm just trying to get people to define a True Christian (the topic of this thread), rather than ignore the questions or bob and weave.

So you learned something new?

Great! I'm not trying to prove you wrong, that's not my mission. I just want a straightforward definition of a True Christian, and reasons for that definition. A definition of a True Christian was proposed, and I was attempting to show which groups are True Christians and which ones aren't.

I was curious if you were going to re-evaluate the definition or change it based on which groups were included (as often happens). I wanted to know if you still like your definition of a True Christian.

Gee, thanks. That's so kind of you. Since I'm so darn new to this whole religion, message board, discussion, debate, typing thing, I appreciate your overlooking my shortcomings.

What exactly are you giving me a break on? I want to be sure not to do it again your highness.

Well, seeing as I posted a link to the <a href="http://www.mormon.org/learn/1,8672,802-1,00.html" target="_blank">Mormon Church</a> website in one of my messages above when discussing Mormon beliefs, you could look there. However, since you failed to look at the link before, here is an excerpt from the website:

"Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:2)."

It sounds like they think he is pretty divine to me.

Not once have I told you that "you believe this" or "you believe that". I simply took the definition of a True Christian given in this thread and applied it to varying theologies. I listed those that fit your definition and listed those that don't, looking for feedback on the issue.

-Rational Ag

IvanK

Which one? The "all are saved who believe in Jesus with their mind and heart" one? The "oh but if you imitate Jesus in your life you might be OK too" one? The "those who believe and are baptized" one from the Bible? Or the new one, "those who believe Jesus is God who died on the Cross only to rise again?"

Trying to get True Christians (TM) to define what they believe and/or who is saved is like trying to nail Jell-O (TM) to the wall. Beyond that I'm not sure what we've established here.