Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nowhere357 · 05-29-2003, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
(This isn�t intended to start a new controversy raging, and I submit it here merely as an observation, in passing, but Bretec, do we really have �free will to do what ever we want�?)

But I think Free Will is a fiction; a delusion. I think our ability to exercise it starts diminishing from about the age of one onwards as we become increasingly constrained by a combination of social and cultural norms and our developing psychological responses to the myriad experiences handed out by life.

I strongly disagree with this.

First, I make decisions all the time. This is no more a "delusion" then then our "delusion" that when some neurons fire, we feel pain.

Second, I would say the 1yr old has practically no will at all, and our ability to override our innate tendancies grows as we do.

Well, I don't want to derail the thread either, but I couldn't (choose not to) resist.

BadBadBad · 05-29-2003, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
[B]Freewill and an Omniscient God are a paradox only to those who cannot understand it.

God did not lay out a rigid program like someone gave an example of earlier.
Freedom to choose is just that. You are free to choose whatever path you so desire. God just happens to know what choice you are going to make. It's not a paradox.

The paradox is in your mind.

No, the paradox is in the Bible. If you read back through this thread, you'll see our arguments are based upon what the Bible says. You haven't addressed any of the arguments, you've just ignored them and posted the same babble we hear all the time. Saying it one more time won't impress anyone.

Stephen T-B · 05-29-2003, 08:42 AM

I don�t look for a reply, Nowhere357, but my question was: could you have ever made a different decision than that which you made?
Bear in mind A) your state of knowledge at the time and B) the outcome you desired.

I seriously wonder if you have any control over either A) or B)

Tarnaak · 05-29-2003, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Freewill and an Omniscient God are a paradox only to those who cannot understand it.

You're right, it's not. If god knows what choice I'm going to make, then I can only make the choice god knows I'm going to make. I can't make any other choice. It couldn't be any clearer.

Response:
Again; Just because God knows what choice you are going to make, doesn't preclude you from making YOUR OWN CHOICE. God does not make the choice for you. You make the choice. What is so hard to understand about this, I mean really?
To me it is plain as day and so it goes back to:

[You are trying to understand how God can know what your choice already is, when it is you who should be considering why you made the choice you did.

You say it a bit later; I "choose based on information that {I} have received during {my} life"; (there's possibly other factors). That's at least a soft deterministic claim, by the way.

Lets say you are given a choice of A, B, C, or D. Which do you choose? You have a 25% chance of choosing any of them

Response:
Not necessarily; the probabilities are typically weighted by other factors (e.g., information that I have received during my life). Seldom is there an even probability that I'd make any one of a set of choices.

But if god knows I'm going to make choice A, the probability that I'll make choice A is 1.0. It's set before I choose; I cannot choose B, C or D.

Response:
You have the option though. You seem to be stuck on God knowing what your choice is, thinking that, that takes away your freewill when it doesn't.

and a 100% chance of choosing all of them.

I think you might have meant a 100% chance that I'd choose one from among them.

Response:

That wasn't what I meant, poorly worded. I look at life, choices, especially this discussion based on spiritual beliefs. Within these beliefs, I am allowed to change my mind. I can choose to not believe one day, then re-believe the next (if i wanted to). I can wait until my death bed (rhetorically speaking) before I claim any spiritual choice. But, like the song from RUSH, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." What I'm saying is that you can eventually choose them all if you needed to.

But you choose based on information that you have received during your life.

True, but there are possibly other factors as input (e.g., there may be a genetic predisposition). And that's a form of determinism.

Response:
There is nothing genetically speaking that would prevent you from making a choice, one way or the other.

The nice thing is, you can always go back and choose again with no penalty.

One can never "go back" and choose again. And if one could go back and choose again, to exactly the same conditions without knowledge of the previous attempt at a choice, one would make the same choice! Remember, you choose based on information that you have received during your life (among other factors). Those factors combine to "make" the decision for you.

Response:
But you still can make anther choice.

But in order to make the choice, you have to understand why you made the choice.

??? You're losing me here. You said earlier that "you choose based on information that you have received during your life."

Response:
Right, so what was it during your life that influenced your choice. Was the influence good or bad? If you make a choice going against what your influences tell you to do, then perhaps you are growing on your own, or its God's way of "bringing you into the fold".

Was it mis-information? How do you know? How does one possibly fathom that which is of God using the simple human mind that one has?

So is the choice mine, or God's? You're still losing me here.

Response:
The choice is yours: see above

And if one cannot "possibly fathom that which is of God using the simple human mind that one has", what's with these statements you make in a bit about "God is all around us and there is no evidence that he doesn't exsist" and that "the only flaw in the Bible, is between the Bible and the hand that holds it"? If we can't "possibly fathom that which is of God" with the minds he gave us, how the hell could he ever expect us to recognize evidence of Him or grasp the "word" he supposedly gave us??? And how can you, with your "simple human mind" that cannot "possibly fathom that which is of God", make a statement such as "freewill and an Omniscient God are a paradox only to those who cannot understand it"? According to you no one should be able to understand anything about God.

Response:
Now your reading more into than there is. We have been provided information. That information, in order to understand it FULLY must be done with the help of the Holy Spirit. The basics which should be enough to get you going without the Holy Spirit are not what I'm talking about.

If you can say with absolutly no doubt that God does not exsist, then you have achieved the ultimate truth. But if you cannot, then your soul's possible state for eternity is in jeopardy.

You've lost me even more. Are you saying that "God does not exist" is the ultiimate truth? Are you saying strong atheists will be OK but agnostics and weak atheists are doomed???

Response:
Ugh, no. If you can PROVE without ANY DOUBT one way or the other, then Truth has been achieved. Until ONE OR THE OTHER is KNOWN FOR SURE, ABSOLUTLY NO DOUBT, then the possiblility of God being real will always be in the mix. (Pascal's Wager)

Atheists choose not to believe because there is no "evidence" of God that they can understand.

No, as an atheist, I don't choose not to believe. That wouldn't even make sense if I saw no evidence of God (which I don't). I lack belief because there's no evidence to support belief. There's no "choice" to my lack of belief; it follows naturally from the lack of evidence.

Response:
This is still your choice...: see above

Christians believe because God is all around us and there is no evidence that he doesn't exsist.

Well, of course there's no evidence that god doesn't exist. There's a lack of evidence that god does exist. Believers see things and say "Look, that's evidence of God!" Of course they do; if you believe in a creator god, everything appears as evidence of that god.

Response:
God is in the mind of the beholder, if you don't behold, then of course your not going to see God.

The only flaw in the Bible, is between the Bible and the hand that holds it....

That and the 66 books contained therein.

But remember, you said "How does one possibly fathom that which is of God using the simple human mind that one has?" I would assume this also applies to the "flawless" bible.

Response:
Since you do not have a mindset with God (Holy Spirit), of course the Bible seems flawed to you.

AJ113 · 05-29-2003, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
Response:
Since you do not have a mindset with God (Holy Spirit), of course the Bible seems flawed to you.

Correction. The bible does not seem flawed. It IS demonstrably flawed. It is your fallacious non-sequitur that is flawed.

Tarnaak · 05-29-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by K
Sabine Grant:

Do you believe that God knows our choices before we make them?
Yes
Do you believe that God knew the choices we would make before he created us?He created Adam and Eve, the rest of us have been born

Do you believe that God was forced to create us the way He did, or was He free to use His creativity?He created Adam and Eve in "his/their image. This would indicate that a choice was made to do it that way.

Now if you believe that God chose to create with exception to Adam and Eve, there is nothing that states God "creates" any of us us the way we are knowing full well what choices we would make, then how is that any different from predestination? see my prior post

If God knew before creating me that I would write this post, and He chose to proceed with my creation without changing the design, then He did indeed predestine me to write this post. There is nothing I could have done differently to avoid writing it. Only God could have changed the outcome by creating me with a different design. God is the only one with free will in this scenario. The free will comes at design time.

see above

Tarnaak · 05-29-2003, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
Correction. The bible does not seem flawed. It IS demonstrably flawed. It is your fallacious non-sequitur that is flawed.

What exactly do you mean?

Tarnaak · 05-29-2003, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephen T-B
I don�t look for a reply, Nowhere357, but my question was: could you have ever made a different decision than that which you made?
Bear in mind A) your state of knowledge at the time and B) the outcome you desired.

I seriously wonder if you have any control over either A) or B)

The answer would be no, you couldn't have. Because you base your decisions on those parameters. If you had different parameters that you used, then yes. The decision could have been different.

BadBadBad · 05-29-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak
Again; Just because God knows what choice you are going to make, doesn't preclude you from making YOUR OWN CHOICE. God does not make the choice for you. You make the choice.

Tarnaak, we're atheists and skeptics. You can't just say something over and over to get us to believe it. If you want to say something about christianity, you at least have to try to tie it to the Bible. Then you have to show that it's consistent with what the rest of the Bible says. Then you have to show that your interpretation is consistent with what the rest of christians believe. Then you have to show that the Bible and particularly the part you're interested in is the inspired word of god and not just the babble of some ignorant goat herder. And finally, you have to get to the part about how it's actually true, and that a self contradictory murderous, moral, vengeful, loving, perfect God exists. So for now, why don't we just compare what you say to the Bible.

Everyone else, forgive me for posting this again, but I tried it with Sabine after she asked over and over for it. All I got was complaints about how I'm not a nice person, I'm a word opportunist, how I won't answer her questions, and what did I mean about fooling God. So forgive me while I try again with Tarnaak.

Now for Tarnaak,

The Bible says that God predestined us to salvation or damnation, honor or dishonor, mercy or hellfire. The reason is given as well. Not because God has foreknowledge of our free will choices, but to purely to show the glory of God. "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

Stop just saying it. Show us in the Bible where it says that God knows what your choice is in advance, and because of that he predestines you (hardens your heart) to damnation and dishonor. In the mean time, let's use what the Bible actually says instead:

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

Romans 8:29-31
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Rom.9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Eph.1:4-6 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

2 Th.2:11-13 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."

Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation."

Quote:

Since you do not have a mindset with God (Holy Spirit), of course the Bible seems flawed to you.

Yes the Bible says this, but it says we were predestined by God to be this way "that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Halelujah! It doesn't say he did it because he knew what my free will choices would be and I will be a bad boy in the future, so he'll go ahead and make sure of that by hardening my heart, dishonoring me and damning me to eternal hell before I was ever born. That it's my fault anyway, even though this was all decided before I was born. Not that I still have free will anyway to change that predestined will of God. Instead it says again "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Mageth · 05-29-2003, 05:43 PM

Again; Just because God knows what choice you are going to make, doesn't preclude you from making YOUR OWN CHOICE. God does not make the choice for you. You make the choice. What is so hard to understand about this, I mean really?

OK, you make your "own choice"; but if god knows you're going to choose A, you can't change your mind and choose B. That's determinism.

You have the option though.

What good is the "option" if I can only make the one choice god knows I'm going to make???

You seem to be stuck on God knowing what your choice is, thinking that, that takes away your freewill when it doesn't.

You apparently have no choice but to keep repeating that. How can I be said to have free will if I can't choose any option but the one god already knows I'm going to make?

That wasn't what I meant, poorly worded. I look at life, choices, especially this discussion based on spiritual beliefs. Within these beliefs, I am allowed to change my mind. I can choose to not believe one day, then re-believe the next (if i wanted to).

Umm, not really. One just doesn't have such arbitrary control over one's beliefs as you seem to think you do. You would have to receive new information or reinterpret old information based on external input (which is in itself a form of "new information" to change a belief. Trust me, without additional information indicating god's existence or other external (or perhaps internal, physiological) input, I can't just choose to believe that God exists. Do you think you could decide just out-of-the-blue, with no input, decide that Santa Claus exists? Could you decide out-of-the-blue, with no additional information, that God doesn't exist? I don't think so.

That "If I wanted to" is a big factor, BTW. Before you can change beliefs, you have to first want to change beliefs. What would cause you to want to? External influences, additional information that influence you to change your beliefs. Wanting to change beliefs doesn't just pop into one's head by magic.

At the core, one's beliefs are directed by external and internal influences which are largely if not totally beyond one's direct control (but there's no god out there dickering with you).

I can wait until my death bed (rhetorically speaking) before I claim any spiritual choice. But, like the song from RUSH, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." What I'm saying is that you can eventually choose them all if you needed to.

It has little or nothing to do with "need". It has everything to do with "can". One can't just arbitrarily switch beliefs like you describe because you "need" to. If you're on your deathbed, there is obviously an external influence on your beliefs that's going to affect your choice. The new information is "I'm dying soon." But, if you don't have enough information to indicate a god exists, you can't just decide "god exists", not even on your deathbed.

There is nothing genetically speaking that would prevent you from making a choice, one way or the other.

I strongly disagree. One's brain chemistry and construction are at least partially genetically determined. Those things are the physical basis on which all this believing and choice-making is being performed. They can and do have an influence on your beliefs.

And note that if you were born to Muslim parents in Saudi Arabia, you would in all likelihood be praising Allah and the virtues of the Koran right now. Don't tell me that there's no genetic basis for beliefs.

But you still can make anther choice.

No, no, no. In the first place, as I said before, you can't go back and make another choice. In the second place, one can't just arbitrarily choose one belief over another - as you said, your choices are based on information you've received over your lifetime. Without additional information or other influences, you're not going to be switching choices around like that. With the information I have available at this moment, I can't just choose to believe in God. Similarly, I imagine, with the information you have, you can't just choose to not believe in god. Something's got to happen to cause you to change beliefs.

Right, so what was it during your life that influenced your choice.

The lack of evidence for a god leaves me with the only rational option of lacking belief in god.

Was the influence good or bad?

How could one make such a determination? One would, I reckon, have to assume the "rightness" of your choice to make such a determination - e.g. assume that you're right that god exists to determine that an influence was bad. From my standpoint, such influences are neither good nor bad - they're just input.

If you make a choice going against what your influences tell you to do, then perhaps you are growing on your own, or its God's way of "bringing you into the fold".

What the heck are you talking about? How could I make a choice against what my influences are telling me to do, if that's indeed what they do? Influences don't tell me to do anything - they're just input.

Now your reading more into than there is. We have been provided information. That information, in order to understand it FULLY must be done with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Well, that shoots a hole in it. There is no holy spirit, either, so no help's coming from there. You'd have to already believe in the dang thing for it to have any influence on your understanding. Further, if the choice is indeed ours, what's the holy spirit doing mucking about in our brains? How does that fit in with "free will"?

The basics which should be enough to get you going without the Holy Spirit are not what I'm talking about.

What you're apparently talking about is believing in god in order to believe in god. Things just don't work that way.

Ugh, no. If you can PROVE without ANY DOUBT one way or the other, then Truth has been achieved. Until ONE OR THE OTHER is KNOWN FOR SURE, ABSOLUTLY NO DOUBT, then the possiblility of God being real will always be in the mix. (Pascal's Wager)

Well, that's a waste. Pascal's Wager is useless against anyone with half a brain, haven't you heard? Can you prove Allah is not the one true god? It's possible that Allah's real, you know. In fact, it's possible that every god ever conceived by man (and an infinite number of as-yet-unconceived gods) are real, too. You better hope you've chosen the right one, or 'ole Pascal is gonna smack you in the ass.

Further, one can reduce or eliminate the probability of a particular god, such as the God typically defined by Christians, is true. In my mind, the probability of the commonly defined Christian God being true is 0.0. And I have no doubt about that.

This is still your choice...: see above

No, it's not a "choice". I can't just "choose" to believe" in something with no evidence to justify belief. Something has to happen to make me want to believe. Like you said earlier, you could change if you want to. Something has to happen first before you, or I, would want to change our beliefs.

God is in the mind of the beholder,

Yes, and that's the only place God is.

if you don't behold, then of course your not going to see God.

Yes, of course. Restated, if you don't believe in god, then you're not going to see god. This is quite true. Unfortunately, the god you see is a projection of your belief, of your need to see god to justify your belief. The God you see is in your mind.

Since you do not have a mindset with God (Holy Spirit), of course the Bible seems flawed to you.

There you go throwing free will out the window again. If the holy spirit is revealing things to you that you can't otherwise see (which it's not), is mucking around inside your head, supposedly influencing your perceptions, your beliefs, and even your choices, then you can't claim to have truly free will.

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05-29-2003, 08:42 AM	#83
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	I don�t look for a reply, Nowhere357, but my question was: could you have ever made a different decision than that which you made? Bear in mind A) your state of knowledge at the time and B) the outcome you desired. I seriously wonder if you have any control over either A) or B)

05-29-2003, 05:43 PM	#90
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Again; Just because God knows what choice you are going to make, doesn't preclude you from making YOUR OWN CHOICE. God does not make the choice for you. You make the choice. What is so hard to understand about this, I mean really? OK, you make your "own choice"; but if god knows you're going to choose A, you can't change your mind and choose B. That's determinism. You have the option though. What good is the "option" if I can only make the one choice god knows I'm going to make??? You seem to be stuck on God knowing what your choice is, thinking that, that takes away your freewill when it doesn't. You apparently have no choice but to keep repeating that. How can I be said to have free will if I can't choose any option but the one god already knows I'm going to make? That wasn't what I meant, poorly worded. I look at life, choices, especially this discussion based on spiritual beliefs. Within these beliefs, I am allowed to change my mind. I can choose to not believe one day, then re-believe the next (if i wanted to). Umm, not really. One just doesn't have such arbitrary control over one's beliefs as you seem to think you do. You would have to receive new information or reinterpret old information based on external input (which is in itself a form of "new information" to change a belief. Trust me, without additional information indicating god's existence or other external (or perhaps internal, physiological) input, I can't just choose to believe that God exists. Do you think you could decide just out-of-the-blue, with no input, decide that Santa Claus exists? Could you decide out-of-the-blue, with no additional information, that God doesn't exist? I don't think so. That "If I wanted to" is a big factor, BTW. Before you can change beliefs, you have to first want to change beliefs. What would cause you to want to? External influences, additional information that influence you to change your beliefs. Wanting to change beliefs doesn't just pop into one's head by magic. At the core, one's beliefs are directed by external and internal influences which are largely if not totally beyond one's direct control (but there's no god out there dickering with you). I can wait until my death bed (rhetorically speaking) before I claim any spiritual choice. But, like the song from RUSH, "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." What I'm saying is that you can eventually choose them all if you needed to. It has little or nothing to do with "need". It has everything to do with "can". One can't just arbitrarily switch beliefs like you describe because you "need" to. If you're on your deathbed, there is obviously an external influence on your beliefs that's going to affect your choice. The new information is "I'm dying soon." But, if you don't have enough information to indicate a god exists, you can't just decide "god exists", not even on your deathbed. There is nothing genetically speaking that would prevent you from making a choice, one way or the other. I strongly disagree. One's brain chemistry and construction are at least partially genetically determined. Those things are the physical basis on which all this believing and choice-making is being performed. They can and do have an influence on your beliefs. And note that if you were born to Muslim parents in Saudi Arabia, you would in all likelihood be praising Allah and the virtues of the Koran right now. Don't tell me that there's no genetic basis for beliefs. But you still can make anther choice. No, no, no. In the first place, as I said before, you can't go back and make another choice. In the second place, one can't just arbitrarily choose one belief over another - as you said, your choices are based on information you've received over your lifetime. Without additional information or other influences, you're not going to be switching choices around like that. With the information I have available at this moment, I can't just choose to believe in God. Similarly, I imagine, with the information you have, you can't just choose to not believe in god. Something's got to happen to cause you to change beliefs. Right, so what was it during your life that influenced your choice. The lack of evidence for a god leaves me with the only rational option of lacking belief in god. Was the influence good or bad? How could one make such a determination? One would, I reckon, have to assume the "rightness" of your choice to make such a determination - e.g. assume that you're right that god exists to determine that an influence was bad. From my standpoint, such influences are neither good nor bad - they're just input. If you make a choice going against what your influences tell you to do, then perhaps you are growing on your own, or its God's way of "bringing you into the fold". What the heck are you talking about? How could I make a choice against what my influences are telling me to do, if that's indeed what they do? Influences don't tell me to do anything - they're just input. Now your reading more into than there is. We have been provided information. That information, in order to understand it FULLY must be done with the help of the Holy Spirit. Well, that shoots a hole in it. There is no holy spirit, either, so no help's coming from there. You'd have to already believe in the dang thing for it to have any influence on your understanding. Further, if the choice is indeed ours, what's the holy spirit doing mucking about in our brains? How does that fit in with "free will"? The basics which should be enough to get you going without the Holy Spirit are not what I'm talking about. What you're apparently talking about is believing in god in order to believe in god. Things just don't work that way. Ugh, no. If you can PROVE without ANY DOUBT one way or the other, then Truth has been achieved. Until ONE OR THE OTHER is KNOWN FOR SURE, ABSOLUTLY NO DOUBT, then the possiblility of God being real will always be in the mix. (Pascal's Wager) Well, that's a waste. Pascal's Wager is useless against anyone with half a brain, haven't you heard? Can you prove Allah is not the one true god? It's possible that Allah's real, you know. In fact, it's possible that every god ever conceived by man (and an infinite number of as-yet-unconceived gods) are real, too. You better hope you've chosen the right one, or 'ole Pascal is gonna smack you in the ass. Further, one can reduce or eliminate the probability of a particular god, such as the God typically defined by Christians, is true. In my mind, the probability of the commonly defined Christian God being true is 0.0. And I have no doubt about that. This is still your choice...: see above No, it's not a "choice". I can't just "choose" to believe" in something with no evidence to justify belief. Something has to happen to make me want to believe. Like you said earlier, you could change if you want to. Something has to happen first before you, or I, would want to change our beliefs. God is in the mind of the beholder, Yes, and that's the only place God is. if you don't behold, then of course your not going to see God. Yes, of course. Restated, if you don't believe in god, then you're not going to see god. This is quite true. Unfortunately, the god you see is a projection of your belief, of your need to see god to justify your belief. The God you see is in your mind. Since you do not have a mindset with God (Holy Spirit), of course the Bible seems flawed to you. There you go throwing free will out the window again. If the holy spirit is revealing things to you that you can't otherwise see (which it's not), is mucking around inside your head, supposedly influencing your perceptions, your beliefs, and even your choices, then you can't claim to have truly free will.

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