Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sourdough · 03-15-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
[B]So its more cruel to you for God to kill the children and bring them to Heaven while they aren't accountable, then to let them live their full life, grow up, reject him and end up in Hell? The soul and eternity are more important to God than an eye blink of time on Earth, especially when he knew the children would grow into their own destruction due to the disgusting, sinful times they lived in.

if there was heaven I wouldnt complain,
unfortunately Heaven doesnt exist,therefore humans life is most precious gift we have,with few exceptions(killers,molesters,rapists and such),
the Heaven idea lacks LOGIC,how would the soul(if it existed)
feel anything without physical body,

Soma · 03-15-2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Psycho Economist
I call bullshit on:Because you said this in response to meemphasis added)

First, in contradiction to what you said later, your notion that your deity can change reality such that the universe synchs with his opinion is an "ability to subject us to what he decrees".

Secondly, judgments are inherantly subjective statements. Subjective statements cannot be factual in themselves. So your god's subjective judgments are opinions too... assuming (and you haven't given us reason to accept this assumption) that such a deity exists. And to say that your deity can go about changing the universe such that right and wrong correspond with his opinions is even more preposterous. We'll talk about your deity changing the basics of the universe when he makes it plainly obvious to all that he exists, and that 2+2 now equals 5.

A *truly* *objective* morality would exist en toto regardless of your deity's opinions. Would be binding on your god. Saying that right and wrong are whatever please your imaginary friend is to say that right and wrong are subjective and arbitrary distinctions. To an atheist, they may still be subjective, but they're not necessarily arbitrary.

Attempting to place morality above God is illogical. God is by definition that which the greatest and the source of all things. Morality exists only because God created it. What God decrees is not arbitrary and subjective. As a perfect and infallible being, He knows exactly what is best for us. Atheists do not have the same luxury.

From your perspective, there can no objective morality. Consequently, any form of objectivism cannot be because God is the one who established all forms of it. That's not my problem, it's yours.

Soma · 03-15-2003, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sourdough
thats exactly the reason I hate religion/god worshipers;you DONT think about difference between right and wrong!
if your preachers tell you that god told them to kill/burn some witches,or blow up an abortion providing doctors,your regular braindead religious nutcase will blindly follow/do EVIL while thinking its good b/c god says so.
religions dont care for others who dont share their particular brand of worship,therefore:
believe in Gods must DIE before there will be peace on Earth.

Under the atheistic worldview, right and wrong are nothing more than what each person makes of it.

So, if a person believes rape and murder are right, then who are you to argue with him?

If a society decides that slavery is an acceptable practice, then so it shall be.

Welcome to the inherently destructive nature of atheism!

Soma · 03-15-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HRG
No, he can't, just as he cannot create square circles. "Objective" = "not dependent on a specific entity". Any moral system that God postulates (a moral system is not a thing which can be created) is subjective - for that very reason that a specific entity postulated it.

By definition he can't. Any such morality will be subjective to God.

Morality and power are uncorrelated, else Stalin would have been an important source of morality.

HRG.

Then we must both concede that under the theistic worldview, no objective morality can exist.

Of course, I would contend that God's omnipotence allows Him to establish objective morality.

Power is an important factor. You cannot dismiss God's ability to forever reshape the universe and the laws governing it. His power affects everyone and everything, a mortal's power is confined and limited.

Soma · 03-15-2003, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sourdough
so when He drowned all the living things,including the innocent children in the Great flood that was from the goodness of His heart,right?
and every time some tornado,flood,earthquake i.e an ACT OF GOD happens and kills however many of HIS children its just Him working in his mysterious ways?
get real!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.thewaronfaith.com

God's actions are always just. He is not bound to morality as we are.

Magus55 · 03-15-2003, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sourdough
if there was heaven I wouldnt complain,
unfortunately Heaven doesnt exist,therefore humans life is most precious gift we have,with few exceptions(killers,molesters,rapists and such),
the Heaven idea lacks LOGIC,how would the soul(if it existed)
feel anything without physical body,

First of all, stop using the argument "heaven/God doesn't exist", you have absolutely no clue whether it does or not, you only believe it doesn't. Its an illogical argument, so stop using it.
Second, who said we won't have physical bodies? In fact we will because Jesus said he would change our bodies to be perfect when he brings us to Heaven.

the_cave,

Quote:

So why did they sin, but believers in heaven won't?

Well my argument and opinion on this is believers have been on the sinful earth. We know the truth and we know the pain, destruction and evil sin causes. We also know what happened to Lucifer and the angels for doing it. I don't think we are dumb enough to confess our lives to Jesus to be saved when we know we are sinners and need him, and then turn right around and go back to a life of sin and pain. Satan had never experienced Sin, he didn't know what the consequences of rebellion were actually like, we do. And i figure, if for some odd reason, someone is really dumb enough to be in God's presence after suffering on Earth, and still rebell against him, they will fall to Hell too. Having no desire to sin doesn't take away our free will.

Philosoft · 03-15-2003, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soma
Under the atheistic worldview, right and wrong are nothing more than what each person makes of it.

*checks "Atheist Worldview" handbook*

Nope, not in there. Perhaps you have a logical proof for this assertion?

Quote:

So, if a person believes rape and murder are right, then who are you to argue with him?

I'm the guy who can make a strong inductive argument that rape and murder are bad because they're socially counterproductive.

Quote:

If a society decides that slavery is an acceptable practice, then so it shall be.

Seems that way, at least for a while. Just ask the Christians in 1800 U.S.

Quote:

Welcome to the inherently destructive nature of atheism!

Your smugness will not win you any admirers. In any case, God's moral standards are only as effective as he can convey them. And I assert God has done an exceedingly poor job of that.

Soma · 03-15-2003, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft

*checks "Atheist Worldview" handbook*

Nope, not in there. Perhaps you have a logical proof for this assertion?

It is one of the implications of your atheistic worldview. Atheism precludes any possibility of moral absolutes because a God is required to permit the existence of any moral absolutes.

Quote:

I'm the guy who can make a strong inductive argument that rape and murder are bad because they're socially counterproductive.

It remains that nothing under your worldview renders such acts as inherently evil. If an atheist chooses to believe they are good, then they are good as far as he is concerned.

Besides, rape and murder are just two extreme examples. Would most atheists be adverse to abhorrent practices such as genetic engineering, trait and gender selection, discrimination, racism, sexism, etc.?

Theists are required by God to be anti-rape, anti-murder, fair, honest, compassionate, and empathetic. Atheists do whatever they think is right.

Quote:

Your smugness will not win you any admirers. In any case, God's moral standards are only as effective as he can convey them. And I assert God has done an exceedingly poor job of that.

And I contend that most people are just too stupid and greedy to understand or care for what God would want us to do.

Jobar · 03-15-2003, 06:48 PM

The only reference to Satan I've seen on this page was by Magus55. This thread is supposed to be about Satan, remember?

When the topics of discussion get as rarified and complex as those we commonly talk about here, it's very easy to lose focus and wander off into a muddle. This thread is a prime example. I tried to get Soma to move earlier; though this is the appropriate *forum* for your subject, it is NOT the right thread.

So I am going to lock this thread for 24 hours. After that, if anyone wishes to discuss SATAN- not just the general subject of evil in the world- please carry on. For those wishing to discuss their own views of how God and evil relate to each other, please start your own topic, or feel free to use the one I started for Soma ('God=Brahman?') Or use any existing topic which seems appropriate- but DO NOT DRAG THE THREAD OFF TOPIC.

I've had people complaining that the threads here seldom manage to stay on topic, and they have cause!

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03-15-2003, 06:48 PM	#89
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	The only reference to Satan I've seen on this page was by Magus55. This thread is supposed to be about Satan, remember? When the topics of discussion get as rarified and complex as those we commonly talk about here, it's very easy to lose focus and wander off into a muddle. This thread is a prime example. I tried to get Soma to move earlier; though this is the appropriate forum for your subject, it is NOT the right thread. So I am going to lock this thread for 24 hours. After that, if anyone wishes to discuss SATAN- not just the general subject of evil in the world- please carry on. For those wishing to discuss their own views of how God and evil relate to each other, please start your own topic, or feel free to use the one I started for Soma ('God=Brahman?') Or use any existing topic which seems appropriate- but DO NOT DRAG THE THREAD OFF TOPIC. I've had people complaining that the threads here seldom manage to stay on topic, and they have cause!

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