Gurdur

One day I will write a CGI script that can produce this stuff on demand; it will be very easy, since only 8 clich�ed phrases will be necessary.

echidna

Well it phases me that some are so dissatisfied with the status quo that they would prefer the entire world lived under the "soul-crushing misery" of communism. This reflects a naive (and very insulated) grassroots misunderstanding over just how the rest of the world live their lives, both now and in the past.

Moon, life expectancy and economic prosperity is increasing all over the planet (save Africa where even economics cannot rectify what is essentially the cultural problem of AIDS). Improvements made better and faster in countries under capitalism (there are exceptions as discussed). You would suggest a system which on attempt has only succeeded in killing & imprisoning millions and perpetuating poverty ? I figure you've got a hell of a lot more apologising than myself. I don't see marxists polling strongly in anyone's elections.

... oh sorry, I forgot about Myanmar.

Monkeybot

Um, hi guys, just wondering if I could get a response to this? Admittedly, I'm not well-versed on the situation, so any sort of jumping off point might help...

echidna

You know, barbed wire is really strange stuff. Under a capitalistic system, it keeps people out of places. In a communist system, it keeps people in.

Who were the machine gunners on the Berlin Wall looking for ? West Berliners or East Berliners ?

Me and Me

Hal 900

Where has capitalism had success?

The U.S. is only powerful because it has to get rich off of cheap foreign labor, conquer other nations and set up puppet regimes that obey it's economic demands. The handful of capitalist nations that you can call a success were countries that had a foundation and had a head start by previous control of colonies or previous mass enslavement, or mass ethnic cleansing of territories they wanted. And some of the countries that you can call successful capitalism are countries that need to borrow money to sustain themselves.

And are you implying that successful means good system? and unsuccessful means bad system?

It is a good thing the greeks didn't listen to your wise advice, otherwise humans would have given up on the progress of democracy.

Skeptictank

Well, if capitalism is to blame, how do you explain the success of implementing capitalism in Poland, Hungary or the Czech Republic?
The Russian economic reform failed because it was poorly planned and executed and corrupt officials sold state enterprises to corrupt oligarchs. It had nothing to do with market economics. And things are changing in Russia and the economy is picking up, but law enforcement needs to be beefed up.
If the USSR showed that planned economies were ever so much better how come there were chronic shortages of even basic consumer products YEAR AFTER YEAR despite having some of the most productive farmland and the richest mineral resources in the world?

You must now show that capitalism has caused these people to be in "soul crushing misery" and it was NOT due any number of other factors. Conversly I CAN show how capitalism and capitalist countries have CONSITANTLY raised the standard of living for its participants year in and year out. Wanna REALLY good example? Look at Chinese economic growth rates and productivity pre-capitalist reforms and post reforms. Shocking.

Of course if you want the short answer as to why communism fails, here is your answer.....
Why Marxism REALLY fails

echidna

Laughed so hard I shat. The onion kills me.

Celsus

Previous discussion here and probably elsewhere. Hasn't this topic been done to death?

Joel

moon

Now that is just pure and unadulterated bullshit.

It is refuted by noting that:

(1) the U.S. has supported numerous bloodthirsty and expansionist dictators (Suharto, Pinochet, Somoza, Duvalier, the South African racists, etc.).

(2) No socialist states have been expansionist. (What, was Grenada, with its population of 100,000, going to take over Latin America?)

(3) The U.S. attacked democratic socialist states like Nicaragua under the Sandinistas, Chile under Allende, Congo under Lumumba, and so on. The U.S. undermined the election in Vietnam in 1956 which would have unified the country, because, as Eisenhower noted in his memoirs, everybody knew that if there was a free election Ho Chi Minh would win easily.

The case of Nicaragua is particularly instructive. After supporting the Somoza family dictatorship for 50 years, the U.S. turned to attacking Nicaragua under the Sandinistas when the Sandinistas brought democracy to Nicragua for the first time in its history. The 1984 election is one of the most remarkable examples of democracy in history. While under attack from a foreign power, the Sandinistas provided funds and free media time on the state-owned media (there was also a private media), even to the front group representing the Contras. In the most closely monitored election in history, the Sandinistas won 67% of the vote with over 70% of the electorate voting.

After the 1984 election, the U.S. stepped up its attack on Nicaragua, eventually bringing the country back under its control after a decade of economic strangulation and massive state terrorism that left 30,000 dead out of a population of 4 million.

moon

I am still waiting for echidna to back up this assertion:

"While proletariat communist uprisings are not uncommon, neither are the proletariat cries for free enterprise after they�ve tasted socialism."

I would be contented if echidna could show us even one example of a proletariat of a country "crying" for "free" enterprise (and not just an overthrow of a Stalinist bureaucracy.)