Kassiana

but not nice enough, hon. I see right through each one, easily.

SecularFuture:
If you had a company, who would you rather hire?

(A) A person with very little mental stability?
(B) A person who was mentally stable?

To the big picture, this issue is very significant.

Kass:
Prove that anyone with a theistic belief has little mental stability. Go ahead. I haven't seen any logical evidence of this. Personally, I think I have more mental stability than most people. BTW, nice evasion of my destructions of your straw men about "theists appear emotional so they're stupid." Very nice. No theist I know could do better.

SF:
Magical thinking is not realistic thinking.

Kass:
This had to do with your contention that looking emotional and silly proves theism to be emotional and silly how? Not at all, I see. Just assertions and unsupported, illogical arguments. Boy, I'm ready to give up theism now.

SecularFuture

Amos
How does the dictionary define rational?
ra•tion•al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rsh-nl) adj.
• Having or exercising the ability to reason.
• Of sound mind; sane.
• Consistent with or based on reason; logical: rational behavior.

Is there anything rational about theism? No, I don’t think so.

It wasn’t through desperation. It was through reason. I found atheism to be the most obvious, and most logical, standpoint. If the world can be explained without the inclusion of a supernatural god concept, why are we still trying to hold to such concepts? Why aren’t we moving on from ancient, misguided, thinking, and onto more founded concepts?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kassiana
Are you trying to tell me that people who believe in unfounded, magical, concepts are just as sane as the people who believe in realism? Give me a break!

If a man went around shouting “I saw a flying pink elephant!” authorities would most likely send him to a psychiatric hospital. However, if that same man went around shouting “I saw Jesus!” the authorities would probably do nothing. I see a double standard here, and some insanity!

I never said that. Please re-read what I typed a little closer. I made a reference to the look of theists during church rituals, but I never made, or tried to make, a connection between their looks and intelligence.

All I said was that “magical thinking is not realistic thinking”.

Evasions my ass! I challenge you to a one on one debate. Let’s see who the real evader is!

Kassiana

I see, SF. You just posted what you did about theists looking emotional and silly in order to insult me, right, since you now contend that it had nothing to do with your argument?

BTW, you still haven't given any evidence that ANY human being with theistic beliefs has little mental stability, including Thomas Paine (Deist) or Michael Servetus (founder of Unitarianism) or Thomas Jefferson, either. Do you have any, other than extremist examples of Western Christianity in the past? You've shown you think they are, certainly, but that's no reason for ME to believe anything.

Thanks, but I don't "debate" with people who are so biased against me from the start, and who seem to be arguing more from hatred of theism than logic or facts. It just leads to frustration on my part and hatred on theirs.

Starboy

Kassiana, if you want atheists to think that Christians might be nice people then convince your Christian friends to stop trying to convert the world. I will consider Christians to be tolerant understanding people when they get it through their thick skulls that there is more than one way to see our existence other than through god colored glasses. Until that day comes, just think of us as niggers that have been living under slavery for too long. Ain't no Christians gonna treat us right, cause dey tink dey better'n us. When Christians stop trying to convert the world that is when I will think that they are decent human beings. I have no problem with live and let live as long as the other guy has no problem with it. Get god off our currency, out of our schools, off our public building, out of our anthems and out of political discourse.

Starboy

Kassiana

Sigh. You know, when I first introduced myself on these forums (I believe it was EOG), I unfortunately called myself a theist. I then got several posts asking me to resolve Bible contradictions. However, seeing that I'm not a CHRISTIAN theist, I had to clarify. Apparently, you also have mistaken me for a Christian.

I have declared numerous times since then that (a) I'm not a Christian, but a Pagan, (b) as a non-Christian I tend to sympathize with religious minorities, including atheists, about the overt favortism Christianity gets in our society, and (c) as an ex-fundamentalist, I am not likely to make friends with the kind of Christian who wants to, in your words, "convert the world" or to put God on cereal boxes and in our national mottoes. My friends, in other words, tend to stand with Americans United rather than the Moral Minority. And I have about as much influence with conservative Christians as did Madalyn Murray O'Hair, because I'm a devil worshipping Satanist member of the New Age, you know.

Finally, you might want to reconsider using racial epithets on these boards and edit your post accordingly. Though it may convey your feelings, it is very likely to hurt others', atheists or Christians or Muslims or Pagans alike. I admit I considered for quite some time whether I should respond to you at all, given what you said above.

Thank you, and goodnight.

Starboy

Sorry Kassiana, I mistook you for a Christian. Also no insult to people of color whatever it may be. Just using the African American experience to illustrate what many Christians are doing to their fellow human beings, not only atheists, but African Americans, homosexuals, Jews and anyone else they do not consider worthy of their religion. They are creating a country divided and painting a big red bulls eye on the back of the good'ol US of A for all other intolerant religions around the world to take aim at.

Starboy

Kassiana

Starboy:
Sorry Kassiana, I mistook you for a Christian.

Kass:
It's okay...like I said, it's happened before here, though I admit it was probably partially my fault that time. I guess this time I assumed I was too well known to be called a Christian.

Starboy:
Just using the African American experience to illustrate what many Christians are doing to their fellow human beings...

Kass:
After I calmed down a bit, I realized that. It's just that certain terms raise my hackles. I wouldn't necessarily disagree to what you say above, though I'd qualify it with the additional, "...and often to their fellow Christians who don't share their prejudices, like my Unitarian Universalist Christian friends."

wildernesse

So, the answer to my question is: No, there is no connection between praying and believing in YEC/special creation. You've not shown how my praying hurts humanity's progress--you jumped straight into how YEC and anti-evolutionists hurt science. Can you tell me how praying detracts from benevolent actions?

Again, I don't see where your statements follow from my own. I also don't think that you got my point that close-minded adherence to ideas and an inability to consider other people's point of view is dangerous. YOUR lumping of all theists into " those who stop humanity's progress" (even though, I don't think you have defined progress yet) is dangerous and faulty.

Since you haven't defined progress, I can't say what is more productive. You also haven't shown that theists are using time thinking "magical thoughts" that could be better spent finding realistic solutions and are discounting theists' efforts in finding those solutions to things like hunger, homelessness, a sustainable environment and economy, etc.

I also think that the statement "Why waste any time believing in something that probably doesn't exist" comes close to "If I'm right, then you lose, so think like me." You are trying to impose your values upon me--your idea of how to spend my time, your idea of how to live my life, your idea of what is valuable in this life, your idea of progress. How is this *imposition* any different from those people who tell you that your purpose is to worship and glorify God, you should live your life in accordance to His principles, such and such is sin and is an offense to God, etc.?

So, the answer again is: No, you're not blaming my employer for holding back science. If you concede that she is advancing scientific knowledge and is a theist, then how does this support your idea that theists are preventing us from gaining new scientific knowledge? In a way, my job advances scientific knowledge and I'm a theist--so, as far as I can see your assertion that theism prevents gains in scientific knowledge is wrong.

I think that finding a cure for human diseases/ailments is important--however, I don't think that finding cures for everything would be the apex of human acheivement. In fact, I think that our world would be much worse off--partly because of the extreme overpopulation this would bring and the subsequent conflict over limited resources.

--tibac

SecularFuture

Kassiana,
No. I was just making an observation.

Atheists are emotional people also, but you rarely see them with their eyes rolled back in their heads, hands extended in the air, talking in tongues with drool spilling from their mouths. [I’ve literally seen that!]

And you still haven’t answered my initial question:
Do you think it should be considered healthy for an adult, 21+, to hold to a firm belief in Santa Clause and/or The Tooth Fairy? If yes, why? If no, why?

Belief in God is no different than having a belief in Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy. There is no evidence for any of those concepts, and any one who has a serious belief in God, or Santa Clause, or the Tooth Fairy should be considered mentally unstable. They may be stable enough to live regular lives (Thomas Paine, Michael Servetus, Thomas Jefferson), but they are not stable, or thoroughly qualified enough to handle matters relating to naturalism.

Yes, I am an angry person (sometimes). But I can always flip the civil switch and engage in a civil debate.

Atheism is not a religion. It is an adjective; the denial of the existence of a supernatural deity.

Yeah… I kind of agree, but still… I don’t know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Starboy,
Amen!

YES!

Controversial language… but still… DAMN GOOD POINT! We, as secularists, are still seen as “evil god haters” in the public eye. First off: You can’t hate something that you do not believe in. Secondly: We are not “evil” simply because we do not follow the more mainstream philosophies from theistic thought.

Okay… now you’re starting to sound like a racist!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wildernesse,
True. I was tired at the time I typed my response. I feel better now.

How is praying hurting progress?
Prayer isn’t hurting progress, but the belief in prayer and the supernatural is. Belief in a supernatural deity is taking away from our belief in humanity. Instead of focusing all of our time and attention to realistic / worldly issues, many choose to rely on unfounded supernatural concepts, i.e. horoscopes, prayer, worship, etc. If more time was spent on naturalistic critical thought, and less time spent on unfounded magical thought, our world would see big improvements, I think.

What is belief in God based on? - A religious faith; a blind acceptance of a concept that is without evidence or reason. What is the point in wasting any time with theism, when we could use that time on finding cures, space travel (our Sun isn’t forever – we’ll need to move one day), etc.

I wasn’t articulating my thought properly in the previous posts, and for this I apologize.

Progress is as defined in the dictionary.
Movement, as toward a goal; advance.
Development or growth: students who show progress.
Steady improvement, as of a society or civilization: a believer in human progress.

I believe, and I may be wrong, that humanism is the door to improved progress. Christianity is a religion that states, “if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you will not have clearance to Heaven.” Okay… In other words, “if you do not believe in what I believe, you suck!”

Religion does not unify; it separates.

Does God exist? Yes or No or I don’t know?
Why should anyone believe in a god?

If theism were eradicated, more people like your employer would result. Without theism, there would only be naturalism and naturalists, and more concern for finding natural solutions for a natural world. (ugg – my grammar is deteriorating!)

wildernesse

Gahh! I had almost finished my response to you, and then I went back to work and *closed* the window! Aaaahhh!

If it is just about time spent on what you consider wasteful, then I think theism is the least of your worries. I worked it out and I spend about 5 hours a week doing primarily Christian things (praying, choir practice, church services). However, I spend about 4 hours a night watching Law & Order (mostly ) on television--so it seems that tv would be a much higher priority on the "preventing progress" list.

I think that most people who believe in God have experiences that meet their personal burden of proof. In other words, they have experiences that match what they would expect if their beliefs were true.

I also don't think that if theism were destroyed, people would automatically turn to work in scientific research or for the good of humanity. They might have more time for their kids, or they might just putter around the house.

I know that my theism doesn't prevent me from working on space travel or medical research--my brain not being able to compute higher level math has much more to do with that. Also, I don't see the point of space travel and cures for disease if resources are mismanaged in such a way as to deny many people basics such as food, shelter, living wage, or access to healthcare.

This is the primary reason that I am not pursuing a graduate degree in archaeology--what is the purpose of increasing knowledge about ancient life when my next door neighbor is hungry and uneducated? And my theism is what has shaped my social conscience.



You seem to be very busy--I know that it takes a lot of time for me to clearly express myself sometimes, even when I want to reply quickly. It doesn't help when you lose your post because of your own stupidity!:banghead: I still can't believe I closed the window.


Progress and steady improvement toward what? What are the goals of humanity?

I think that the only real goal of humans is for "me and my group to prosper". Because we are complex social animals, how we reach that goal is complex--but it seems to work.

Since you talk about unity, I would guess that you probably think that it would be good for all of humanity to think of humankind as "my group". And because our world is shrinking, so to speak, thru improvements in communication and transportation, I think we will get closer and closer to thinking of humans as one group. .

You say that theism divides--and in many ways it does, I agree. But it is not the only thing--politics and nationalism, as well as sports loyalties and food preferences also are divisive. I don't know that I can say that religious belief divides people any more than politics.

I don't think that this is the primary teaching of Christianity. But I'm difficult like that.

I don't know. I *believe* that God does exist. I know why I believe--but that doesn't mean I know why you/anyone should. In fact, I can't say that you/anyone should believe like me.

I don't think that follows. Theism is already NOT preventing people like my employer from existing and doing good work. I don't think you've proven that theism in general prevents people from being excellent scientists or researchers. Or prevents people from studying science.

--tibac

Edited because I can't type.