dk

I agree, the principles established in Everson and McCullum rule the day. There is no question religion was an aspect of education exiled from the curriculum. The question now turns to what has education become absent any religious content, and what filled the void?

Comments????

Daggah

False dichotomy. Why does something have to "fill the void?"

dk

The point is that one thing becomes another, so what has education become absent religion?

gravitybow

Religion is not absent from the educational environment (school). Only the coercive power of the government to mandate prayers and observances has been curtailed. Students, however, are free to exercise their constitutional rights to recite prayers, read religious texts of their choosing, congregate in groups, establish clubs, pass flyers, make invitations, etc. as long as they are not disruptive. "The void" appears to be filled with a wealth of protected opportunities.

Your observation is false.

(BTW, by "religion" do you mean "christianity"?)

Daggah

Repeating a logically fallacious statement doesn't change the fact that you're guilty of a false dichotomy here. Repeating your assertion does not constitute proving that assertion.

If anyone should be using the roll-eyes smiley here, it's me.

dk

Daggah
Repeating a logically fallacious statement doesn't change the fact that you're guilty of a false dichotomy here. Repeating your assertion does not constitute proving that assertion.

If anyone should be using the roll-eyes smiley here, it's me.

It is not a false dichotomy, to remove from education any and all religious references, changes education i.e. a secularizes education. The proposition necessarily supplants religious with secular doctrine. In fact...

gravitybow

My daughter attends public school, and I can tell you that "any and all religious references" have not been removed, but they have their place. But you are conflating this with the whole notion of "religious doctrine" being supplanted.

We already have sciences like these infused with religious doctrine. It's called creation science. Maybe that would fill the void, eh?

dk

dk: dk: That’s true, references to theistic religion remains as a scapegoat. Secularized Schools are mysteriously able to teach and integrate the power of Buddhists chants, witchcraft, Santa Clause and the pagan rights of Spring; but are forbidden to teach the ten commandments, greatest two Commandments, golden Rule, beatitudes, and theological & corporal virtues. . For example in American History children are simultaneously taught colonists fled to the New World to escape religious persecution, and Christian missionaries were sent to destroy native cultures to make slaves of indigenous populations.
dk: My argument is one of proportion not censure. The Supreme Court ordered “an impenetrable wall” be erected to separate Church and State. In so doing they hobbled, and in many instances crippled, public educators with an agenda unsuited to the purpose of education i.e. to transmit civilized values to the next generation. You can deny the crisis in education has anything to do with demise of the nuclear family, and that’s exactly what most secularists do, but the only advocates of the nuclear family over the last 40 years have been traditional Christians. It seems to me the success of our nation enjoys today emanated from the values transmitted by nuclear families. For example even Islamic fundamentalists can acquire the skills to fly jet airliners, build and operate sophisticated modern weapons. Maybe the true lesson is that the social dogmas derived from mathematics, physics, astronomy, chemistry, biology, and sociology are necessary to live in a modern technological world but inadequate for the purposes of public education. In the US we are almost uniformly opposed to an education solely dedicated to any particular religious dogma, except the secular dogma we teach in public schools.

hezekiah jones

dk: In the US we are almost uniformly opposed to an education solely dedicated to any particular religious dogma ...

Even the so-called non-preferentialists and accommodationists (i.e. Edwin Meese, William Bennett) agree that the First Amendment guarantees against it.

dk: ... except the secular dogma we teach in public schools.

What the heck is "secular dogma"?

[btw I think you've got your IIDB members confused there.]

gravitybow

Come off it, you don't care a whit about other theistic religions and never refer to them, only christianity (as your examples demonstrate). You're also indirectly answering the previous question I posed to you: by "religion" do you mean "christianity"?

Have you been to a public school lately? All of your examples seem "mysteriously" anecdotal. Schools, by and large, are simply not operating like the caricature you give. I could give a better argument, complete with newspaper clippings, to show that christianity is rampant in schools and administrations turn a blind eye to the constitutional rights of minor religions. Maybe I could start with Texas governor Rick Perry's leading a captive public school assembly in christian prayer, then I could move on to football prayers in west Texas. From there we could move to christian prayers still given over loudspeakers during morning announcements. Then we could cover Gideons still handing out Bibles in public classrooms. There's much more, but the point is that I can paint a one-sided picture with my anecdotes, too.

As for your observations, If other religions have been mysteriously injected into the curriculum, then you mysteriously have the right to challenge it.

Your American History examples don't demonstrate christianity as a scapegoat. As you characterize them, one shows religious people on a noble endeavor and the other shows them acting brutally on behalf of empire-building countries. My conclusion would be that there is good and bad in any given group.

Damn that Supreme Court! I heard that they based this ruling on some eighteenth century document written by some guys after some war. A poor way to make rulings, if you ask me.

Have you even paid attention to the news, read any threads on this topic, or received any e-mails? Everyone knows that the crisis in education is due to the removal of prayer from school and the lack of the Ten Commandments being posted on every classroom wall. All those secularists are wrong, huh?