Philosoft

Actually, that's a great answer you've given yourself there. If God can physically intervene, without reducing free will (arguably quantitatively increasing it), that would seem to be the ideal way for an omnibenevolent being that values free will to reduce evil outcomes.

Autonemesis

But you didn't comment on the larger question. You only commented about how distasteful you thought it was for the OP to refer to a real person or to speculate on someone's eternal fate.

Biff the unclean

Fatherphil: one thing i think He values is a humble heart, stand proud before Him and it may not bode well. but then our pride may not be so resilient before something so awesome that defies comprehension.

It's pretty disgusting how Christianity glorifies the worst aspects of humanity and portrays them as virtues.
There's no 'Blessed are the bold, the brave, the self reliant, the makers of jokes, the lovers of life, the romantic, the confident, the intelligent.'

fatherphil

biff, i would not count humility as one of the worst aspects of humanity. i would however count the aspect that drove lesley's murderer in there.
as for the other virtues you speak of, there are plenty of biblical characters that are commended for displaying them so take heart.

GeoTheo

King David

MrDarwin

Would it make any difference if it were an adult in the same situation?

Thank you for your straightforward answer, but please don't tell me a premise based on my own experience and observations is "ridiculous" (for the latest example, check out the futility of prayer thread.). But are you suggesting that if an adult were in the same situation, he or she would be damned?

Tell me, Radorth, are you a deist who believes that God just sits back and watches, and never interferes in worldly affairs until the dramatic conclusion? (I rather doubt it, but perhaps I'm wrong.)

But that's kinda the point, isn't it? People hope for some kind of intervention, like a heart attack or a lightning bolt. Or something a little more subtle, like helping the police or detectives figure out where the child is before she is murdered, like finding a fingerprint or other piece of evidence they might have overlooked. (Let's leave aside for the moment the observations that the OT tell us about God interfering in free will all the time, and according to the NT Jesus likewise performed miraculous "physical interventions" right and left.)

But my question was not about free will, or about why God allows people to do evil things. The truth is, that's not something that bothers me. My question is about why some Christians (though apparently not you) seem to think that God answers all prayers, when the evidence is so lopsidedly otherwise. And I'm simply tying it to the common assertion I hear from Christians that if you don't believe in God when you die, you're going to suffer for all eternity. Rightly or wrongly, many people die not believing in God, for various reasons. For example, I suspect that many murder victims pray to God to help them, and end up dead anyway--and I imagine that at least a few of them, just before they die, reach the point of believing, there is no God. Are these people saved, or are they damned? Does it make a difference if it's a child, who simply doesn't understand, or if it's an adult who just can't bring himself to believe that it must be a good thing that he's about to be murdered because God is allowing it?

So why not hinder it right now? What's stopping him/her/it? How many children will be murdered before God steps in to intervene?

Rhea

I'm pretty sure a burning bush would have done the trick.
Flood?
Locusts?
Plague?


Is your god capable of those things?
NO?
How about something easier.

Heart Failure?
Loss of consciousness?
A cop at the door?
Heck, A Jehovah's Witness at the door.


No, I can't think of anything an OMNIPOTENT GOD could do, either.

Jamie_L

Here's the situation:

Murderer: Desires to torture and kill girl.
Girl: Desires to escape and live her life.

Real world result: Murderer is free to choose courses of action that fullfil his desires. Girl is not. Girl has not choice.

Now, suppose God zapped the Murderer dead.

Hypothetical result: Girl is free to fulfill her desires. Murderer is not.

In both cases one person is robbed of their Free Will. The net change in "human free will" from God's intervention is roughly zero.

And this is a balanced scenario. What about September 11? The Free Will of 19 hijackers was maintained, while the Free Will of thousands of other people was quashed. That was a pretty bad day for net human Free Will. Wouldn't some divine intervention have allowed for a lot more Free Will in the world that day?

But, suppose that argument gets shot down. Here's another:

Murderer makes Free Will choice to kidnap girl. He is about to begin the torture, but he trips over a banana peel (cleverly placed by God), and is knocked unconscious. The girls escapes.

Now, the Murderer was able to exercise his Free Will. He made the choice to do bad things. The girl also has escaped, thusly exercising her Free Will, and now she gets the rest of her life to continue her Free Will.

This is a win/win. There is a net increase in "human Free Will" over the real-world scenario, because the Murderer got to make his bad choice AND the girl got to exercise her Free Will too.

Jamie

MrDarwin

Geotheo, I think you've missed my point entirely. First, do you believe God answers prayers or not? Feel free to qualify your answer. Second, do you believe that people who do not believe in God when they die (for whatever reason), are damned? Third, let's make it a little more hypothetical, and say the murder victim was an adult. You do agree that adults are occasionally horribly murdered without us having to name names, don't you?

MrDarwin

Whereas if there is a God, she got the raw deal from God? Or do we still blame it on humanity? Seems to me she got a raw deal either way.