Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doctor X · 08-01-2003, 02:20 AM

nermal:

I do not think the Bible that clear . . . somewhere Paul dislikes lesbians; however, I do not bring that up to disagree with your so much as to demonstrate that the basis for a person's belief is not as solid as they like to think it is.

Where I would agree is that a religion has a right to determine its dogma for its adherents--no matter how ridiculous it is--but it does not have the right to determine it for everyone else.

JP has crossed the line there. Sure, of course he believes he is "right"--old Dave Allen joke about how the Pope tells the Archbishop of Cantebury that, "you preach the Lord's word in your way, and I will preach it in his."

I do not believe he has the right to determine morality for everyone else.

While like you I do not adhere to any religion, I find it sad that your friend had to be turned away because of the dogma, but that is not her fault, it is the religion's fault.

--J.D.

--J.D.

Godless Dave · 08-01-2003, 05:44 AM

Bluenose · 08-01-2003, 06:31 AM

Why do Franciscans wear long brown robes?
To hide the altar boys between their legs.

kkholiday · 08-01-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Where I would agree is that a religion has a right to determine its dogma for its adherents--no matter how ridiculous it is--but it does not have the right to determine it for everyone else.

JP has crossed the line there.

Who has he determined dogma for? You? Obviously, you are rejecting what the Church has stated about this, so JP has not determined anything for you.

You may believe all this is bunk and that the church shouldn't throw around absolutes and judge what is wrong for everyone. But Catholics have to believe that the Church and the pope have the authority to make these proclomations; the system wouldn't work any other way. How could you follow a religion that ignored a pressing issue of the day or took some vague, wishy-washy stance on it?

What did you expect JP to say? To go against the Church's existing policy? To say that Catholics believe it is wrong but everyone else should just follow their heart? To throw in a disclaimer that any non-adherants shouldn't be offended, this message is only meant for Catholics?

The point is that the Church does believe same-sex marriages hurt individuals' relationships with God, and they also feel that it is the duty of the Church is to point out the way to God especially on morally tough issues. Many people look to the Church for guidance, and the Church in turn feels it is supposed to help everyone, not just Catholics.

If you, as a non-adherant, don't want to accept the message, that's fine; don't. It's your choice; it isn't being forced on you.

brighid · 08-01-2003, 07:19 AM

Quote:

it isn't being forced on you.

Well when the Pope calls upon the Legislators of this country and Catholics who vote to forbid same sex unions for non-Catholics in government, civil unions I think it is indeed being forced upon people.

Brighid

kkholiday · 08-01-2003, 08:43 AM

Catholics make up roughly a quarter of the US population. The people pushing for same-sex marriages are going to get a lot more opposition from protestants (which pretty much double the Catholic population) than from the Catholics, even if you assume that every Catholic is going to take the pope's side.

From my own observations, Catholics tend to be relatively liberal, and many don't agree with or uphold many of the church's teachings but still consider themselves Catholic.

Barcode · 08-01-2003, 10:02 AM

I'm feeling quite angry about this at the moment.

I've just had my girlfriend crying to me after one of her Church friends sent an e mail to the whole group saying they need to support the Pope and take action wherever possible.

My girlfriend has been asking me how what she feels can be wrong, and of course it isn't ... but she's being told this. Her group *seemed* accepting at first, but now they seem to be impying it's a phase or she'll find the right man as presumably that must be God's will.

And it's frustrating ... my girlfriend will continue to associate with this, which seems psychologically damaging ... I'll be the one there for her when she is upset ... where is this God she speaks of that is supposed to love everybody.

I guess he's absent from her church and group by the looks of things ...

Godless Dave · 08-01-2003, 10:26 AM

Ask her why she thinks the pope knows more about what's right and wrong than she does. It comes down to this: does she want to be her own person, or is she going to let a senile old man in Rome push her around?

edit: major typo

Milton · 08-01-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godless Dave
Ask her why she thinks the pope knows more about what's right and wrong than she dies. It comes down to this: does she want to be her own person, or is she going to let a senile old man in Rome push her around?

Or better yet, leave the Catholic Church.

Godless Dave · 08-01-2003, 10:54 AM

That's sort of what I meant, Milton. But if Barcode put it in so many words her gf would probably stop listening out of habit. Just like if you tell an addict they have to quit cold turkey.

08-01-2003, 06:31 AM	#23
Bluenose Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: small cold water flat Posts: 471	Good one GD Why do Franciscans wear long brown robes? To hide the altar boys between their legs.

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08-01-2003, 02:20 AM	#21
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	nermal: I do not think the Bible that clear . . . somewhere Paul dislikes lesbians; however, I do not bring that up to disagree with your so much as to demonstrate that the basis for a person's belief is not as solid as they like to think it is. Where I would agree is that a religion has a right to determine its dogma for its adherents--no matter how ridiculous it is--but it does not have the right to determine it for everyone else. JP has crossed the line there. Sure, of course he believes he is "right"--old Dave Allen joke about how the Pope tells the Archbishop of Cantebury that, "you preach the Lord's word in your way, and I will preach it in his." I do not believe he has the right to determine morality for everyone else. While like you I do not adhere to any religion, I find it sad that your friend had to be turned away because of the dogma, but that is not her fault, it is the religion's fault. --J.D. --J.D.

08-01-2003, 05:44 AM	#22
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762

08-01-2003, 08:43 AM	#26
kkholiday Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: P'cola, Florida Posts: 226	Catholics make up roughly a quarter of the US population. The people pushing for same-sex marriages are going to get a lot more opposition from protestants (which pretty much double the Catholic population) than from the Catholics, even if you assume that every Catholic is going to take the pope's side. From my own observations, Catholics tend to be relatively liberal, and many don't agree with or uphold many of the church's teachings but still consider themselves Catholic.

08-01-2003, 10:02 AM	#27
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	I'm feeling quite angry about this at the moment. I've just had my girlfriend crying to me after one of her Church friends sent an e mail to the whole group saying they need to support the Pope and take action wherever possible. My girlfriend has been asking me how what she feels can be wrong, and of course it isn't ... but she's being told this. Her group seemed accepting at first, but now they seem to be impying it's a phase or she'll find the right man as presumably that must be God's will. And it's frustrating ... my girlfriend will continue to associate with this, which seems psychologically damaging ... I'll be the one there for her when she is upset ... where is this God she speaks of that is supposed to love everybody. I guess he's absent from her church and group by the looks of things ...

08-01-2003, 10:26 AM	#28
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	Ask her why she thinks the pope knows more about what's right and wrong than she does. It comes down to this: does she want to be her own person, or is she going to let a senile old man in Rome push her around? edit: major typo

08-01-2003, 10:54 AM	#30
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	That's sort of what I meant, Milton. But if Barcode put it in so many words her gf would probably stop listening out of habit. Just like if you tell an addict they have to quit cold turkey.

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