Jeremy Pallant

Nothing like a penis to generate conversation.

Well, speaking for myself, my circumcision nearly killed me. Naturally I don't remember it, so I am depending upon my parents accounts. Let's just say, should I ever have the good fortune to become a father to a baby boy, circumcision will be right out!

avalanche:ix

i'm not circumcized....and yes doctors, thank you for not mutilating my penis. i do have a problem with retracting the skin back over the top after sex...it just gets kind of stuck. that's annoying.

Megusic

Has anyone mentioned yet why we even started regularly circumcising baby boys - in an effort to prevent masturbation? how barbaric!

tronvillain

Of course, it didn't work, though it did make it slightly less convenient.

ybnormal

Let me preface what will likely be several additions to this thread, by stating that:

1. Those who wonder how many times can the same issue be discussed in circles, please keep in mind that some of us folks haven't been here long enough to go in circles yet... (I've never mentioned this issue on the Net before) ...then there's the new registrations here... and, not to mention the national debate going on now, much the same as occurred a century ago when a few prominent doctors hysterically shoved circumcision down America's throat(no pun intended- well, a little maybe), with the aid of some dirty-minded cleanliness fanatics...

2. My older brother almost hemorrhaged to death after being cut, and then he stayed in the hospital with infections for a month, and then he was left with an embarrassingly deformed, downright ugly member on a wholly beautiful person, which needless to say, caused him significant emotional trauma his entire life... all for nothing... the only good to come of it, was that it stopped cold what was literally, male genital mutilation (MGM) in my family, beginning with ME.

So, I reckon this is a kind of big deal to me.

Unless otherwise stated, the quotes come from the following SOURCE, which is fully referenced as best I can tell:
(and yes, this can be considered an anti-circ source, as opposed to a pro-close-minded-and-lucrative-circumcision-industry source)

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Male Circumcision in the USA: The Profoundly Disturbing and Explosive Facts

What They Never Told You About Male Genital Mutilation
By Rich Winkel
rich@math.missouri.edu

October 23, 2001

<a href="http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html#intro" target="_blank">http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html#intro</a>
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To rbochnermd:

To be completely up front here- I do understand that you are coming from a professional perspective, but, it seems that you are generally also coming from a circumcision-is-a-good-thing perspective, as well as a what's-the-big-deal perspective, so I think it is safe to say that you are at least as biased as I am, altho in different camps. Is that fair?

Point being, when you speak of...

...studies of circumcision are now being conducted

I must ask whose "studies"? Because, with all due respect, if they are in any way associated with the medical industry, I have good reason to find them suspect, as say, xian studies on evolution. Each has a clear agenda.


Objective evidence is usually the best "ammunition" to use in any controversy.

And again, I have reason to suspect just how "objective" the "evidence" may be... for example, after what we each have already said here, I doubt that either you or I, should be in charge of what may constitute "objective evidence". It is possible that it is impossible to find a man or woman who can be clearly objective on this matter. I suggest this is true with men anyway, regarding this most intimate of personal bias. When you then throw in the folks who have a financial interest, a moral interest or an obsessive cleanliness interest, well, you understand... Then there's the inertia of looking just like Dad, and so many other personal issues of custom.

And, yes, I understand the concept of those double triple blind tests and so on... but when it involves something with such a history of political correctness, social status and outright bigotry, I have no reason to trust a pro-circ source any more than I do an anti-circ source. Just wanted to clear that, right off.


Pope Stevo I:
As a male circumcized at age 30, I can vouch for the difference in sensation. It is very real.

Opera Nut
Circumcision reportedly reduces the man's pleasure by lessening sensitivity of the glans,

and causes more friction and thus more soreness in the woman's vagina.

SOURCE:
A typical western medical circumcision results in the loss of approximately 1/2 of the total surface area of the penis and between 50 and 80% or more of its erogenous sexual nerves, [8, 9, 10] including:

* The Taylor "ridged band" (sometimes called the "frenar band"), the primary erogenous zone of the male body. This unique, highly specialized and exquisitely sensitive structure is equipped with soft ridges designed by nature to stimulate the female's G-spot during intercourse.

* The frenulum, the highly erogenous V-shaped tethering structure on the underside of the head of the penis.

* Between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which can feel slight variations in pressure and stretching, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture.

* Thousands of coiled fine-touch receptors called Meissner's corpuscles, which are also found in the fingertips.

Also lost are:

* The foreskin's gliding action, the non-abrasive gliding of the shaft of the penis within its own sheath, which facilitates smooth, comfortable and pleasurable intercourse for both partners.

* The immunological defense system of the foreskin, which produces immunoglobulin antibodies and antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as the pathogen-killing enzyme lysozyme, a potent HIV killer which is also found in tears and mothers' milk.

* Estrogen receptors, the purpose of which is not fully understood.

* The foreskin's apocrine glands, which produce pheromones.

* The protection and lubrication of the erogenous surface of the penis, which is designed by nature to be an internal organ like the vagina. Natural sex involves contact between two internal organs. [11]


Maybe in all that, the most obvious concept is simply, the penis, which is designed by nature to be an internal organ like the vagina.

Internal, as in, internal!

Double DUH!

Rick, how can a naturalist, fight to keep other naturalists from being naturalists, and have a clear conscious about it?

OK, I'm done, right after... In the beginning...

SOURCE
In 1888, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg, a well respected physician and founder of the Kellogg cereal company, spoke for mainstream Victorian medicine when he wrote: "A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment." [15]

Corn Flakes anyone?

Dr Rick

Unfortunately, whatever benefits circumcision offers is diminished if the procedure is delayed until adulthood:

AIDS 1999 Feb 25;13(3):399-405

Age of male circumcision and risk of prevalent HIV infection in rural Uganda.

Kelly R, Kiwanuka N, Wawer MJ, Serwadda D, Sewankambo NK, Wabwire-Mangen F, Li C, Konde-Lule JK, Lutalo T, Makumbi F, Gray RH.

OBJECTIVE: To assess whether circumcision performed on postpubertal men affords the same level of protection from HIV-1 acquisition as circumcisions earlier in childhood.

A total of 6821 (Ugandan) men aged 15-59 years were surveyed and venous blood samples were tested for HIV-1 and syphilis. Age at circumcision was dichotomized into men who were circumcised before or at age 12 years (prepubertal) and men circumcised after age 12 years (postpubertal). Postpubertal circumcised men were also subdivided into those reporting circumcision at ages 13-20 years and &gt; or = 21 years. RESULTS: HIV-1 prevalence was 14.1% in uncircumcised men, compared with 16.2% for men circumcised at age &gt; or = 21 years, 10.0% for men circumcised at age 13-20 years, and 6.9% in men circumcised at age &lt; or = 12 years. On bivariate analysis, lower prevalence of HIV-1 associated with prepubertal circumcision was observed in all age, education, ethnic and religious groups...CONCLUSIONS: Prepubertal circumcision is associated with reduced HIV risk, whereas circumcision after age 20 years is not significantly protective against HIV-1 infection...

Similar findings have been found for reduction of cancer risk by circumcision.

Rick

Dr Rick

J Urol 2002 May;167(5):2111-2

Effects of circumcision on male sexual function: debunking a myth?

Collins S, Upshaw J, Rutchik S, Ohannessian C, Ortenberg J, Albertsen P.

Department of Urology, Louisiana State University School of Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana, USA.

PURPOSE: Claims of superior sexual sensitivity and satisfaction for uncircumcised males have never been substantiated in a prospective fashion in the medical literature. We performed such a study to investigate these assertions. MATERIALS AND METHODS: The Brief Male Sexual Function Inventory (BMSFI) was administered to sexually active males older than 18 years before undergoing circumcision. After a minimum interval of 12 weeks after the operation, the survey was again administered. The 5 domains of the BMSFI (sexual drive, erections, ejaculation, problem assessment overall satisfaction) were each given a summed composite score. These scores before and after circumcision were then analyzed by Wilcoxon signed-rank testing. RESULTS: All 15 men who participated in the study between September 1999 and October 2000 were available for followup. Mean patient age plus or minus standard deviation was 36.9 +/- 12.0 years. There was no statistically significant difference in the BMFSI composite scores of reported sexual drive, erection, ejaculation, problem assessment, or overall satisfaction. CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision does not appear to have adverse, clinically important effects on male sexual function in sexually active adults who undergo the procedure.

JAMA 1997 Apr 2;277(13):1052-7

Circumcision in the United States. Prevalence, prophylactic effects, and sexual practice.

Laumann EO, Masi CM, Zuckerman EW.

Department of Sociology, University of Chicago,
OBJECTIVE: To assess the prevalence of circumcision across various social groups and examine the health and sexual outcomes of circumcision. DESIGN: An analysis of data from the National Health and Social Life Survey. PARTICIPANTS: A national probability sample of 1410 American men aged 18 to 59 years at the time of the survey. In addition, an oversample of black and Hispanic minority groups is included in comparative analyses. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: The contraction of sexually transmitted diseases, the experience of sexual dysfunction, and experience with a series of sexual practices. RESULTS: We find no significant differences between circumcised and uncircumcised men in their likelihood of contracting sexually transmitted diseases. However, uncircumcised men appear slightly more likely to experience sexual dysfunctions, especially later in life[emphasis added]. Finally, we find that circumcised men engage in a more elaborated set of sexual practices. This pattern differs across ethnic groups, suggesting the influence of social factors. CONCLUSIONS: The National Health and Social Life Survey evidence indicates a slight benefit of circumcision but a negligible association with most outcomes...

Rick

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

tronvillain

rochbermd:
Yes, because they require additional stimulation.

Dr Rick

...they get more blow jobs.

Rick

tronvillain

As I said, they require additional stimulation, which drives them to more actively pursue other forms of sexual activity.

You know, you never did address my answer to your question...