Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kent Stevens · 09-09-2002, 12:01 PM

People do not consider a simple random device to have "free will" by itself. A computer game acts rationally and it has logic built into it that dice does not have. However, people can act a partly random way when they play games. If they are too predictable then their opponent can anticipate moves and effectively counter them.

Helmling · 09-09-2002, 01:36 PM

It chooses, but based on a programed set of criteria. One might argue our "choices" are the same, save based on a program too complex to consciously comprehend. Therefore we indulge in the metaphor of "free will."

Starboy · 09-09-2002, 01:46 PM

Kent, to my mind the only difference between the free will of a pair of dice and a human being is a matter of degree. There is no difference in kind. Unless you can demonstraite a difference in kind, there really is no difference.

Starboy

Rusting Car Bumper · 09-09-2002, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent Stevens:
When people play computer games is the computer choosing responses or is it just responding? If you play the computer at Chess, Poker, or Tic Tac Toe is the computer making decisions or is it just having certain responses being triggered? If you play the computer in a car race or a beat 'em up scenario, is your opponent choosing?

You could have the computer being said to be doing things decisonally. So you could say that the computer decided to play a certain Chess move. It chose this move after looking at alternatives and evaluating the consequences of the various moves. It has a weaker form of "rationality", in that it's moves are informed and they are not crazy, if the goal of the computer is to win.

Great question!

Its been my opinion that computers dont play games.

That is, computers dont play chess for example.

If you think about the aspects of computer algorithms they do not have the underlying assumnptions that exist in humans as they play games.

Humans do not have actual access to their underlying computation ability as algorithms have and the computers hardware s dedicated to the task alone. Its not at all dedicated to keeping the system running as humans are when they get hungry and distracted and so on.

DC

1sec · 09-10-2002, 07:59 AM

Rollin' in-

Quote:

Kent, to my mind the only difference between the free will of a pair of dice and a human being is a matter of degree. There is no difference in kind. Unless you can demonstraite a difference in kind, there really is no difference.

Starboy,
Do you roll to make a choice?

Wait, don't answer that koz you know what? Even if you did roll you wouldn't make a pair of dice koz they don't just roll - they are rolled.

But if it makes you happy to imagine you're just a pair of dice there's nothing in this rollin' world that could stop you from doing it.

Except it would be just your imagination rollin'.

Starboy · 09-10-2002, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1sec:
Rollin' in-

Starboy,
Do you roll to make a choice?

Wait, don't answer that koz you know what? Even if you did roll you wouldn't make a pair of dice koz they don't just roll - they are rolled.

But if it makes you happy to imagine you're just a pair of dice there's nothing in this rollin' world that could stop you from doing it.

Except it would be just your imagination rollin'.

Just 1 sec, 1sec. I am not a pair of dice, but I am like a pair of dice in that the free will I have is because I can choose randomly. It is this ability that gives me free will. If a computer program could not make choices randomly then it would not have free will. If I simply add a random element to some or all of its choices, then I have given it free will.

Starboy

K · 09-10-2002, 11:40 AM

Starboy:

Does an electron in a quantum superposition have free will?

Kent Stevens · 09-10-2002, 12:04 PM

Starboy:

You are getting into word abuse in terms of how free will is ordinary used in ordinary language. I do not believe that free will exists, but I do not like seeing words or phrases twisted way outside of their normal usage.

It is word abuse to say that dice, quantum states, or the weather has free will.

The same thing applies to the word choice. It is word abuse to say that the lottery, the Sun, or tectonic plates choose to do various things. There are alternative possibilities open to all systems but alternatives are different from choices.

Maybe, you can stretch words slightly outside or ordinary meaning to say that certain machines may choose or have free will. But there are limits to stretching how words are used before the words break down into nonsense.

Starboy · 09-10-2002, 12:09 PM

Websters defines free will as:
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

Change humans to electrons:

Freedom of electrons to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

In the experiment you propose individual electrons appear make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. It is only when a huge number of electrons are considered in aggregate that the system appears to be deterministic. People can be thought of in the exact manner. Each person makes their own individual choice but in aggregate the country appears to be moving along a deterministic path. If the number of people involved approached the number of electrons one would find in the experiment you propose say 10^23 people, I suspect it would be very deterministic.

Starboy

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]

Starboy · 09-10-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kent Stevens:
Starboy:

You are getting into word abuse in terms of how free will is ordinary used in ordinary language. I do not believe that free will exists, but I do not like seeing words or phrases twisted way outside of their normal usage.

It is word abuse to say that dice, quantum states, or the weather has free will.

The same thing applies to the word choice. It is word abuse to say that the lottery, the Sun, or tectonic plates choose to do various things. There are alternative possibilities open to all systems but alternatives are different from choices.

Maybe, you can stretch words slightly outside or ordinary meaning to say that certain machines may choose or have free will. But there are limits to stretching how words are used before the words break down into nonsense.

I don't think I am abusing the language. To have a choice means that there is more than one possible outcome. A pair of dice is a machine. It does require something to operate it, but then so does a can opener, yet no one would deny that is a machine. Dice is an interesting example because it is a machine that makes choices. It is intended to be a machine that makes choices with out any outside influences. It is a choice machine. A choice machine can be built into any computer program easily. That would give the program a choice. That would give it free will.

Starboy

09-10-2002, 12:09 PM	#59
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Websters defines free will as: 2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. Change humans to electrons: Freedom of electrons to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. In the experiment you propose individual electrons appear make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. It is only when a huge number of electrons are considered in aggregate that the system appears to be deterministic. People can be thought of in the exact manner. Each person makes their own individual choice but in aggregate the country appears to be moving along a deterministic path. If the number of people involved approached the number of electrons one would find in the experiment you propose say 10^23 people, I suspect it would be very deterministic. Starboy [ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

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09-09-2002, 12:01 PM	#51
Kent Stevens Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 484	People do not consider a simple random device to have "free will" by itself. A computer game acts rationally and it has logic built into it that dice does not have. However, people can act a partly random way when they play games. If they are too predictable then their opponent can anticipate moves and effectively counter them.

09-09-2002, 01:36 PM	#52
Helmling Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: El Paso, TX, USA Posts: 18	It chooses, but based on a programed set of criteria. One might argue our "choices" are the same, save based on a program too complex to consciously comprehend. Therefore we indulge in the metaphor of "free will."

09-09-2002, 01:46 PM	#53
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Kent, to my mind the only difference between the free will of a pair of dice and a human being is a matter of degree. There is no difference in kind. Unless you can demonstraite a difference in kind, there really is no difference. Starboy

09-10-2002, 11:40 AM	#57
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Starboy: Does an electron in a quantum superposition have free will?

09-10-2002, 12:04 PM	#58
Kent Stevens Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 484	Starboy: You are getting into word abuse in terms of how free will is ordinary used in ordinary language. I do not believe that free will exists, but I do not like seeing words or phrases twisted way outside of their normal usage. It is word abuse to say that dice, quantum states, or the weather has free will. The same thing applies to the word choice. It is word abuse to say that the lottery, the Sun, or tectonic plates choose to do various things. There are alternative possibilities open to all systems but alternatives are different from choices. Maybe, you can stretch words slightly outside or ordinary meaning to say that certain machines may choose or have free will. But there are limits to stretching how words are used before the words break down into nonsense.

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