Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clutch · 01-16-2003, 10:54 AM

Show me something which is both dephlogistinated -- ie, has had its phlogiston removed -- and caused at the same time. Ergo, phlogistonated = caused.

Reductio ad absurdum, as we fart smellers -- uh, smart fellers -- like to say.

irichc · 01-16-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Feather
Well I'd have to find something that is still first, wouldn't I?

Not that it matters, since it's up to you to demonstrate that your assertion has any meaning beyond mere tautology.

Everything that exists, moves. Every cause transmits movement. These are general facts, not tautologies. Go and prove them false.

Daniel.

Silent Acorns · 01-16-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irichc
Show me something which is still (absolutely) and caused at the same time.

Daniel.

There are four possible combinations of caused/uncaused and still/mobile:

1) caused and still
2) caused and mobile
3) uncaused and still
4) uncaused and mobile

Your claim is: if not 2 then 3 (or if not 3 then 2)

For this to be true you must show that 1 and 4 are impossible and you haven't come close to doing this. Simply saying "1 and 4 are obviously false" won't do, and neither will saying "show me an empirical example of 1 or 4". Remember, YOU are the one who is claiming to have a logical proof of God.

Also, even if you manage to fill these holes you will still have a problem with the fact that absolute motion/stillness are meaningless concepts and the issue of applying your time-dependent concepts to the beginning of time.

Biff the unclean · 01-16-2003, 11:39 AM

Everything that exists, moves. Every cause transmits movement.

So if everything that exists wiggles, and God doesn't wiggle then God isn't the cause that transmits wiggling and God doesn't exist.

Why didn't you say so to begin with?

Darth Dane · 01-16-2003, 12:03 PM

The point that many budhists has noted is that God or the Void, is both the moving AND the stillness or non-moving.

It is the unmovable mover. The point where God doesn't move is the conciousness of God. I.e. God's point of View, it always stays the same or doesn't move. If God is everything, everything is seen with God's point of view.

This includes you and I.

DD - Atomic God Spliff

Biff the unclean · 01-16-2003, 12:16 PM

When talking about Buddhism it's best not to confuse fact with metaphor. The God(s) is purely metaphoric, a poetic device.

Darth Dane · 01-16-2003, 12:20 PM

True, however that is what books do all over. Scientist talks in metaphors, religion speaks alot in metaphors, whenever we are trying to describe something we are using metaphors, because we cannot explain exactlys what our feeling are, but they are fact none the less!

DD - Metaphorical Spliff

Biff the unclean · 01-16-2003, 12:28 PM

I'll take that as a metaphor for your not owning a subscription to Scientific American and trying to pass off your imaginings about scientists as actual information.

Darth Dane · 01-16-2003, 12:55 PM

What happened in 1911?

All of the scientist had to rewrite the laws of what was possible because the wright brothers changed things.

I wrote this on another board.

It happens none the less. Look at teh schools and such. What they are being taught is indoctrinated. You have to remember that history presents you with facts, and these facts can be disputed because they are facts. They have no choice to believe taht what the books are telling them is true. Whoever that writes books on history, will be facing a problem as many have noted, because they disagree on what is in fact facts!

But they are being taught none the less. Before 1911 noone was taught about motorised flying. It couldn�t be done, everyone who was in science said. But then something happened. The wright brothers did it. So now all the books was rewritten, because they could see with their own eyes that it was possible. Same story in medicine with germs and bacterias. And atoms and such.

When will the books be rewritten?

When will the books, include levitation by will or something?....oh wait someone did already. They were called yogi�s or Rishis as it were.

When will we with our science catch up and rewrite our books?

What do we in fact really know about anything?

Is it more clear now?

DD - Box Spliff

Biff the unclean · 01-16-2003, 01:10 PM

The only things that are clear are that you make things up as you go along, and you don't use Spellchecker .

The Wright Brothers flew in 1903 by the way, not 1911. They designed their "flyer" using known laws of physics. They invented a wind tunnel so that they could check their calculations from an engineering standpoint. They used math and not metaphor. Science not faith.

What the heck are you complaining about? That people can discover new things? Or that yogi�s or Rishis are already known to be frauds?

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01-16-2003, 10:54 AM	#61
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	Show me something which is both dephlogistinated -- ie, has had its phlogiston removed -- and caused at the same time. Ergo, phlogistonated = caused. Reductio ad absurdum, as we fart smellers -- uh, smart fellers -- like to say.

01-16-2003, 11:39 AM	#64
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Everything that exists, moves. Every cause transmits movement. So if everything that exists wiggles, and God doesn't wiggle then God isn't the cause that transmits wiggling and God doesn't exist. Why didn't you say so to begin with?

01-16-2003, 12:03 PM	#65
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	The point that many budhists has noted is that God or the Void, is both the moving AND the stillness or non-moving. It is the unmovable mover. The point where God doesn't move is the conciousness of God. I.e. God's point of View, it always stays the same or doesn't move. If God is everything, everything is seen with God's point of view. This includes you and I. DD - Atomic God Spliff

01-16-2003, 12:16 PM	#66
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	When talking about Buddhism it's best not to confuse fact with metaphor. The God(s) is purely metaphoric, a poetic device.

01-16-2003, 12:20 PM	#67
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	True, however that is what books do all over. Scientist talks in metaphors, religion speaks alot in metaphors, whenever we are trying to describe something we are using metaphors, because we cannot explain exactlys what our feeling are, but they are fact none the less! DD - Metaphorical Spliff

01-16-2003, 12:28 PM	#68
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	I'll take that as a metaphor for your not owning a subscription to Scientific American and trying to pass off your imaginings about scientists as actual information.

01-16-2003, 12:55 PM	#69
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	What happened in 1911? All of the scientist had to rewrite the laws of what was possible because the wright brothers changed things. I wrote this on another board. It happens none the less. Look at teh schools and such. What they are being taught is indoctrinated. You have to remember that history presents you with facts, and these facts can be disputed because they are facts. They have no choice to believe taht what the books are telling them is true. Whoever that writes books on history, will be facing a problem as many have noted, because they disagree on what is in fact facts! But they are being taught none the less. Before 1911 noone was taught about motorised flying. It couldn�t be done, everyone who was in science said. But then something happened. The wright brothers did it. So now all the books was rewritten, because they could see with their own eyes that it was possible. Same story in medicine with germs and bacterias. And atoms and such. When will the books be rewritten? When will the books, include levitation by will or something?....oh wait someone did already. They were called yogi�s or Rishis as it were. When will we with our science catch up and rewrite our books? What do we in fact really know about anything? Is it more clear now? DD - Box Spliff

01-16-2003, 01:10 PM	#70
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	The only things that are clear are that you make things up as you go along, and you don't use Spellchecker . The Wright Brothers flew in 1903 by the way, not 1911. They designed their "flyer" using known laws of physics. They invented a wind tunnel so that they could check their calculations from an engineering standpoint. They used math and not metaphor. Science not faith. What the heck are you complaining about? That people can discover new things? Or that yogi�s or Rishis are already known to be frauds?

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