Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spirit Branded · 05-07-2002, 01:44 PM

Hi John

I was touched by discovering the John I always knew, in your message, and finding you unchanged in most respects except one (your beliefs).

In particular the personal notes, your mention of our families and the knowledge that you know we now have grandsons Thomas and Samuel in our lives when they were not expected to survive ... means a lot to me, only because I value the joy of family so much and would wish you to have every bit of the same kind of joy with yours.

As to the personal beliefs you raise some serious points that I will be reflecting on today and answering soon ... for me the friendship comes first.

The courtesy and clarity in your response are no less than I had always known in you and I trust I can deal with the points as well as you did.

Peace and Joy

Roger

Photocrat · 05-07-2002, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:


Hi Mr Pope-to-be!

Actually Photocrat's not one I'd have put in the anti-liberal camp, myself...I had him down as liberal himself by some standards...

Well, let's see what he says for himself when he next drops by

love
Helen

p.s. You said rw was your long-lost friend entirely due to your neglect.

I understand that kindness intended in saying that but - if you haven't been in contact with rw might it not also have been that he's been away? He was away from here for a while - but maybe in your own absence you didn't notice his...so perhaps you didn't know...

Heh, I was once fairly conservative, actually. But I want nothing to to with "gun nuts," "corporate welfare," anti-environmentalism, racism, or so many of the misguided policies which have become part of the "right wing" ... :[

If anything, I would be rather centrist, anymore, by which I mean that I don't like to label myself (and "liberal," sadly, carries a great many unfortunate connotations, most of which I have been divested of thanks to good counter-examples) as either, even if I probably am fairly liberal any more. Even so, I decide all issues by their merits, as I see them. I have no 'party line' to tow, I will vote for any good candidate (barring that, the lesser of two evils...) no matter what party they are from, etc.

Anyhow, enough rambling :] All I can say is that I'm not anti-liberal.

HelenM · 05-08-2002, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Photocrat:
Heh, I was once fairly conservative, actually. But I want nothing to to with "gun nuts," "corporate welfare," anti-environmentalism, racism, or so many of the misguided policies which have become part of the "right wing" ... :[

I meant religiously conservative, not politically. They aren't the same in theory, although they often are in practice! Should I have said "fundie" and made it clearer? I tend to avoid using that...usually...

If anything, I would be rather centrist, anymore, by which I mean that I don't like to label myself

I hate labels too

I find that the convenience of labels is outweighed by their never quite fitting.

(and "liberal," sadly, carries a great many unfortunate connotations, most of which I have been divested of thanks to good counter-examples) as either, even if I probably am fairly liberal any more. Even so, I decide all issues by their merits, as I see them. I have no 'party line' to tow, I will vote for any good candidate (barring that, the lesser of two evils...) no matter what party they are from, etc.

I hope anyone would, really. Maybe people who belong to a party just know that party always has a better candidate than the other

Anyhow, enough rambling :] All I can say is that I'm not anti-liberal.

So, now can you say whether you consider yourself a liberal Christian, since that's actually what I was talking about in the first place?

Thanks.

love
Helen

HelenM · 05-08-2002, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
we now have grandsons Thomas and Samuel in our lives when they were not expected to survive

That's wonderful about your grandchildren. How come they weren't expected to survive?

love
Helen

Spirit Branded · 05-08-2002, 01:57 PM

Hello Helen

Very early in the pregnancy twin to twin syndrome was diagnosed meaning excess blood to one twin and not enough to the other. A possible outcome was death in the womb, and the chances of that were high given the early onset of the condition. We were warned that survival was a major issue & the outlook seemed grave.

However to everyone's relief the situation stabilised.

In addition there was excessive fluid generation in the placenta which necessitated 3 fluid withdrawals that themselves carried risk of dangerously premature labor.

Even with total rest there was the virtually 100% certainty of premature labor of some kind. Due to a lot of support from family, excellent professional care and the grace of the Almighty the pregnancy reached 30 weeks and the right moment was chosen to deliver, as one twin was nearing severe trauma from the excess blood flow.

Then they were in intensive care ... but progress is now good.

Blessings and Peace

SB

HelenM · 05-08-2002, 03:05 PM

Hi SB

Thanks for sharing that

And it was brave of you to share so personally in a place where if you thank God for His mercies to your grandchildren and your family someone might ask you about all the grandchildren He didn't save...

And of course we don't really have answers that can satisfy, do we?

And it's especially hard if the person asking is the bereaved parent...I think.

All we can do is be thankful for what we have and accept what we don't - so it seems to me.

love
Helen

Spirit Branded · 05-08-2002, 03:40 PM

Helen

I asked myself the same question.

How would I have felt if they had not survived?

I would have believed that the Grace of God expressed in the care of those who supported my daughter was insufficient to overcome the medical problem ... but I would still have been thankful for all the care given.

I would also have appreciated the gift of life to all of us and would have encouraged my daughter not to be discouraged and to try again.

My heart goes out to all who have not experienced a good outcome and my prayer would be that they draw courage from all that is good in this life, as I would have had to do.

You were right to look at the other side of the coin.

Blessings and Peace

SB

HelenM · 05-08-2002, 03:58 PM

Hi SB

I mentioned it only because I've seen what sometimes happens to theists here when they thank God for something.

Maybe you have too.

But it should not stop us from expressing ourselves in the way that is most meaningful and right and true to us.

Anywhere we believe ourselves called to do so.

love
Helen

rainbow walking · 05-08-2002, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
Hi John

I was touched by discovering the John I always knew, in your message, and finding you unchanged in most respects except one (your beliefs).

In particular the personal notes, your mention of our families and the knowledge that you know we now have grandsons Thomas and Samuel in our lives when they were not expected to survive ... means a lot to me, only because I value the joy of family so much and would wish you to have every bit of the same kind of joy with yours.

As to the personal beliefs you raise some serious points that I will be reflecting on today and answering soon ... for me the friendship comes first.

The courtesy and clarity in your response are no less than I had always known in you and I trust I can deal with the points as well as you did.

Peace and Joy

Roger

Hello Roger,
I am very pleased to hear that Thomas and Samuel have made it through the valley of shadows and emerged healthily into the lives of the two most deserving grands I know. If things continue along this vein you'll soon be coaching a family little league baseball team...eh;^D

Spirit Branded · 05-08-2002, 05:59 PM

Thanks John

Your kind thoughts are much appreciated.

I tried to e-mail you several times but your mail-box was full and the e-mails were returned by the system.

I hope all the family are well ... we go back a few years now don't we? Remember Goshen?

Cheers, Roger

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05-07-2002, 01:44 PM	#51
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hi John I was touched by discovering the John I always knew, in your message, and finding you unchanged in most respects except one (your beliefs). In particular the personal notes, your mention of our families and the knowledge that you know we now have grandsons Thomas and Samuel in our lives when they were not expected to survive ... means a lot to me, only because I value the joy of family so much and would wish you to have every bit of the same kind of joy with yours. As to the personal beliefs you raise some serious points that I will be reflecting on today and answering soon ... for me the friendship comes first. The courtesy and clarity in your response are no less than I had always known in you and I trust I can deal with the points as well as you did. Peace and Joy Roger

05-08-2002, 01:57 PM	#55
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Hello Helen Very early in the pregnancy twin to twin syndrome was diagnosed meaning excess blood to one twin and not enough to the other. A possible outcome was death in the womb, and the chances of that were high given the early onset of the condition. We were warned that survival was a major issue & the outlook seemed grave. However to everyone's relief the situation stabilised. In addition there was excessive fluid generation in the placenta which necessitated 3 fluid withdrawals that themselves carried risk of dangerously premature labor. Even with total rest there was the virtually 100% certainty of premature labor of some kind. Due to a lot of support from family, excellent professional care and the grace of the Almighty the pregnancy reached 30 weeks and the right moment was chosen to deliver, as one twin was nearing severe trauma from the excess blood flow. Then they were in intensive care ... but progress is now good. Blessings and Peace SB

05-08-2002, 03:05 PM	#56
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Hi SB Thanks for sharing that And it was brave of you to share so personally in a place where if you thank God for His mercies to your grandchildren and your family someone might ask you about all the grandchildren He didn't save... And of course we don't really have answers that can satisfy, do we? And it's especially hard if the person asking is the bereaved parent...I think. All we can do is be thankful for what we have and accept what we don't - so it seems to me. love Helen

05-08-2002, 03:40 PM	#57
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Helen I asked myself the same question. How would I have felt if they had not survived? I would have believed that the Grace of God expressed in the care of those who supported my daughter was insufficient to overcome the medical problem ... but I would still have been thankful for all the care given. I would also have appreciated the gift of life to all of us and would have encouraged my daughter not to be discouraged and to try again. My heart goes out to all who have not experienced a good outcome and my prayer would be that they draw courage from all that is good in this life, as I would have had to do. You were right to look at the other side of the coin. Blessings and Peace SB

05-08-2002, 03:58 PM	#58
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Hi SB I mentioned it only because I've seen what sometimes happens to theists here when they thank God for something. Maybe you have too. But it should not stop us from expressing ourselves in the way that is most meaningful and right and true to us. Anywhere we believe ourselves called to do so. love Helen

05-08-2002, 05:59 PM	#60
Spirit Branded Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 36	Thanks John Your kind thoughts are much appreciated. I tried to e-mail you several times but your mail-box was full and the e-mails were returned by the system. I hope all the family are well ... we go back a few years now don't we? Remember Goshen? Cheers, Roger

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